The mastodon and lemmy content I’m seeing feels like 90% of it comes from people who are:
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~30 years old or older
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tech enthusiasts/workers
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linux users
There’s nothing wrong with that particular demographic or anything, but it doesn’t feel like a win to me if the entire fediverse is just one big monoculture.
I wonder what it is that is keeping more diverse users away? Is picking a server/federation too complicated? Or is it that they don’t see any content that they like?
Thoughts?
Younger folks have been raised on apps and other polished devices with oodles of effort put into UX design.
Older folks grew up learning DOS commands, memorizing the IRQ of their sound card, and other clunky shenanigans.
In their current state Lemmy, Mastodon and other services are too complicated for most young folks to bother with. Not all, but most, especially the filthy casuals.
This is the answer. I’m 26 and most of my peers didn’t really use the internet beyond the occasional usage of the school library computers until Apple released the first iPhone. By that time places like Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit were up and running.
That’s all their experience with the internet is. Polished experiences through dedicated apps on extremely popular platforms. Now those people have had kids and all those kids know is the same thing. It’s all apps on phones and tablets.
Lemmy: A) Is too complicated in it’s current form for those types of people to effectively understand and use.
B) Lemmy is currently emulating a type of early internet experience that only nostalgic older millennials nerds crave. General users tend to prefer bigger platforms.
Lemmy is nostalgic? Lemmy is novelty for me. Looks and feels so modern. Simplistic, yet modern. Am I weird?
No I feel the same way. I think it’s because it’s part of an ecosystem of concepts built with all its predecessors mistakes in mind. There’s still learning to do but the foundation is simple but is also modern.
yeah, too modern. perhaps they’re using a third party client?
Hello,
Are you aware you are replying to a year old comment?
Also, for less modern: https://old.lemmy.world/
i am also using a third party client
Lol, older millenials never saw the early internet experience. UUCP, FTP, Gopher, Mosaic, et al.
I’m 26, probably among the oldest of gen z. I love lemmy. The quality is higher here because the community is smaller. There are much less reports than there used to be on reddit.
Yeah Im like one of the youngest with an age of 14.But thats okay because lemmy is just awesome for me.
I mean, Reddit killed off ‘polished UX’ and that’s what drove me here. All the great 3PAs are on the Fediverse, after all!
“No, I can’t come out tonight, I’m optimizing my
CONFIG.SYSfile so I can have a mouse AND my Soundblaster work at the same time!”I use Ivory for browsing Mastodon, and I’d bet that the app is more polished than any other first-party social media app.
The problem with Mastodon (and Lemmy to some extent) is that the onboarding process is not as straightforward, thus causing some friction for the less tech-savvy users.
Word! I feel active learning and feeding off one’s brain curiosity diminished for younger folx.
With that comes laziness to “set things up”. “OMG, it’s too complicated for me. I’m having a headache. I can’t, I just can’t.”
My Soundblaster used IRQ 7. Why do I still know this.
Because when the great reset happens and VHS is hot shit again, you’ll be ready.
Ahh, the great modem connection sounds, letting you know that the internet was only just (roughly) 2 minutes away. Or longer.
56k4life
Couldn’t agree more
We are used to Comfort and once you are used to it (or even never experienced else) its hard to lay it off for other benefits
Jeesus you made me feel older. Setting irq jumpers. Sigh
Gen Z Tech enthusiast here; I hope more Zoomers join.
The fact that a majority of even the older Gen Z (like me) have been reported to not understand file systems or general tech and internet knowledge is scary.
At work I’ve been thrust into a support function for some random system (I’m in analytics) and one of the roles I work with is fairly entry level, so lots of younger folk. I have been floored by some of the basic-ass shit I’ve walked them through. (Like explaining that you can copy and paste the url into a browser if the link isn’t clickable for whatever reason. Also had to clarify what url meant–is this not a common term anymore?) I had just assumed that because they’re younger and grew up with the internet, they’d smoke the hell out of me. But I guess interfaces are so streamlined these days many got away with never having to learn basic troubleshooting the same way I did as a millennial.
It’s because they grew up with it rather than actively learning it. UIs have started to hide the actual details, so the users don’t pick them up.
UIs have started to hide the actual details
This is what it’s really about. There’s no need to understand the nuts and bolts because now the software obfuscates all of that.
I used to play SMITE with a kid, and he didn’t really know anything computer related. It was a bit shocking to me since I always just expected that future generations would become more and more tech literate, but I think smartphones kind of screwed that.
Smartphones truly brought computing to the masses more than desktop OSs, and true, the majority of people have no idea what they’re doing. But… prior to smartphones they wouldn’t have been using a computing device at all.
Oh yeah absolutely. It just really baffled me he first time I had that sort of interaction with someone younger than me.
There will always be enthusiasts and nerds, but I rather thought that computer literacy would be more widespread than it turned out.
Me too. In the 90s, when word processing and then the internet went mainstream, I thought that that average people would finally learn basic computer concepts and stop acting like it was super-confusing… just simple things like, what is a file? What is an executable? How do I organize my system? At the most basic, how do I plug all the wires together to set a desktop up? (This one always drove me nuts because there is literally only one cord and socket that fit together for each component).
Instead we ended up with millions of people running Windows 98 with 8 viruses at once and a desktop full of icons, and nonsense like “I’m calling the Geek Squad to come to my house fix my PC!” or harassing the youngest person they know to fix it for them. I can’t count how many times I had to fix my mother or aunt’s computer, then someone would fuck it up again by downloading HottestAlbumListenNow.mp3.exe. The current situation with many people’s Android phones is about as horrifying, with 20 spyware casino apps at once, and they don’t even know where they got them from. Around 2010, I got so tired of my mother saying “my computer’s broken! can you fix it?” that I installed Linux on her machine, and it was somewhat confusing for her for a while as in “How do I get the photos from my camera?” but entirely ended the constant virus/spyware bullshit. Eventually she got a Chromebook, which had the same advantage vs. Windows.
It’s a shame to just have to dumb things down or hide complexity but I think the best choice to give the average person a system like ChromeOS or iOS that they simply can’t fuck up with viruses or spyware. People have demonstrated that they aren’t going to take the time to figure it out.
Ugh, that all sounds really familiar to me too. Boggles the mind that people can’t plug things in, it’s just a case of finding what cord goes from where, and which port it fits in. It’s really difficult to get it wrong. I think the thing I hated the most was being called over to literally read a dialogue. “I was working on my document and this popped up!!”
Do you want to save your document? (Yes/No)
Like please, just read what it says instead of freaking out every time something pops up!
Ha! I have the exact same issue with people and dialogues, like “Okay… did you read it? What did it say?” Somehow they don’t seem to understand that there are words on the screen which are there to tell them information.
I tried helping my ex brother in law over the phone and he couldn’t grasp the concept of right clicking. I told him to just hold on and I would help him when I was back in town.
I know he knows how to right click but when given the instruction to right click on something he somehow forgets what a right click is.
Before 3pa were banned on Reddit I tried to convince people to join Lemmy, and the general consensus was that it was “too complicated”
Its oversimplified but yet I feel like the new generation never had to understand tech basics prior to enjoying it.
It’s a good thing overall, but yeah… Might be a bit scary too
My take on this is not that this is the default early adopter demographic (bereal, TikTok, etc…cmon old dudes don’t act like we are “leading the charge”). But, there’s a good chunk of older tech oriented folks that see a glimmer of hope in the fediverse bringing back some bits of the “old web” imo.
While most of the people like me don’t love meta or Twitter it was kinda good enough, but Reddit was kind of a last straw. I was there when all these companies were born and at the time we were all teen and 20-something early adopters (believe it or not even Facebook used to be cool!) and we’ve watched them all slowly degrade. Very young folks prob don’t care as they don’t really use any of these services, but us old nerds want to avoid the pitfalls of the Web 2.0 era.
Web3 and the crypto-decentralization efforts were really ham fisted…I think most experienced techies saw through all the BS and recognized how wildly inefficient it all was, not to mention outright scammy in many cases. Fediverse is unproven but I think it has potential, and I think many of us older techies feel that way.
First thought when I read the title. Surprisingly, the early adopters of a new, not particularly user friendly tech platform are the same as people who use other niche technologies
You picked the thoughts out of my head, and worded it much better.
If we’re talking efficiency, the fediverse isn’t particularly well optimized either. It’s just a trade off for decentralization.
Even as a crypto enthusiast, the web3 movement smelled like VC manure being dumped on a field hoping something grows.
While most crypto/web3 ended up being get rich quick schemes for their founders, I actually think that the main weakness of lemmy right now will be funding for the long term. So some sort of web3 type micropayment system may need to be the eventual alternative if you don’t want a reddit style ad infested experience.
I gotta disagree with you on one point: Facebook was never cool.
I’m a younger tech nerd, but I do use linux.
30 is just a baby. My son is 30. Im late 50’s.
I think older techies are just sick of all the bullshit regarding corporate aocial/web etc. A lot of us went to linux to escape windows hell for same reasons. Tech is abused to unfathomable levels so we do what we can to limit it.
I’m below 30, but I’m right there with ya. Even in my lifetime, I’ve seen enough stupid corporate shit.
That’s what I’m here for lol. I mean this is how reddit was when I first started there. Same with digg
This place reminds me so much of early reddit. It’s been a strangely nostalgic experience so far. The part of that which I’m enjoying the most, is that commenters are more polite to each other as far as I’ve seen
Everyone writes in clear, concise and grammatically correct sentences too lol. It’s slightly surreal.
That’s what I’m here for lol. I mean this is how reddit was when I first started there. Same with digg
This is what people always miss. Generally, sites become popular because niche subcultures form outside of the “big” websites as they no longer really serve their purpose of connecting to like minded individuals. They never “start big”, they generally snowball from small hardcore users to larger more generalized userbases over time.
aka: early tech adopters!
these folk are always the ones trying new things, especially anti-corporate things. They aren’t keeping people away. this is just how the bleeding edge of new technology. The communities natural grow out over time as more people show up and start to outnumber them. But it’s thanks to them that niche new stuff gets supported in the first place while it builds up it’s audience (and reduces the friction to joining)
In reddit’s early days, it was exactly like this. I remember that it felt like a Linux user forum, but with some conspiracy theorists. I actually feel that lemmy is a little more diverse than that.
I’m new here, and new to federated applications (and fit OP’s description perfectly). This federated stuff is going to remain niche unless somebody figures out a way to make it approachable.
Reddit first time:
> open app > choose some things I like > see all the thingsLemmy first time:
> open app > ????? > google how to use it > choose a... server? > ?????I called this a few weeks ago on reddit and people weren’t impressed with my negativity.
I’m sorry, but you can’t start a website with:
Lemmy is a selfhosted social link aggregation and discussion platform.
And expect 95% of people to do anything other than close the window.
Yep, that is literally me. I am not particularly techy or whatever and I came here because RiF shut down and the maker said they would be on lemmy.world. i had no idea what that meant but i made it here.
Much googling was involved and after i made like 4 accounts on different instances, bumbled around, settled down and learned to subscribe to stuff, i subbed to communities specifically about the fediverse and finding new communities. I also tried like 3 different apps and aettled on Liftoff so far.
I still havent figured out how to reliably see mastodon or kbin stuff or if i even want to.
I can see how most people wouldn’t bother and have no idea why any of this even matters. I still find reddit much easier to use (and important for ongoing world events like the war in ukraine, where it isnt about what we can aggregate but where posters from that conflict put their content originally, a huge amount gets posted directly to reddit and they dont have time to sit around debating the finer points of internet usage), but philisophically i understand why the fediverse is important.
Also learning sbout the concept of defederation (as it regarded Beehaw) was a brainmelter and i felt like i was missing out on “content” be ause of how big it was. My other issue was around not undersranding who runs all these instances and quite frankly having no reason to trust they wouldnt do some crazy stuff themselves.
It’s my very first day. There was a small learning curve, but then I just found memmy and it’s back to a normal Reddit like experience for me. Really not too hard at all.
What if we can’t make it more approachable? Should we forever rely on corporations and their unethical platforms to be able to communicate? Just because people aren’t willing to learn a few very basic things?
This is not a problem with the technology, but with people.
A few basic things? What are you talking about? Gen-Z doesn’t even know how to use a computer. We’re fucked!
This is not a problem with people, but with UX design.
We don’t need a corporation to have usable interfaces. Right now, if you visit join-lemmy.org, the main focus is for people wanting to host an instance, which is only a small part of the advanced user base. The common user won’t care about the fact Lemmy is made with rust or that there’s a docker image.
I don’t think it’s only an issue with Lemmy, lots of open-source projects lack user-friendliness and onboarding.
Yes, Lemmy’s UI is very bad. It would be pretty easy to improve it, if only developers understood this. But I think the part that new users complain about the most is federation. At least I’ve seen many posts and comments saying that it’s too confusing.
I don’t think it’s necessarily the job of the developers, the main issue IMO is that there’s not enough involvement from other specialists such as designers in open-source communities.
Sometimes I try to help, but unfortunately not everyone is willing to listen. I’ve noticed there are multiple reasons why UI might be bad in a Free Software project:
- developers are not UI experts and they don’t know better
- developers are not UI experts and they don’t listen to experts or UI is not their priority
- the UI code is so bad that changing it would require rewriting most of the application and nobody has the time to do that, so there is nothing that can be done (this probably doesn’t happen in web apps)
I believe in Lemmy’s case it’s mostly the 2nd point.
IDK about Lemmy devs, but point 2 is so, so common. Making a point about UX or accessibility in 99% of FLOSS project discussion spaces is incredibly stressful; you can have user research, industry best practice, and years of experience on your side, but you’re inevitably met with dismissal and argument. Devs often treat designers as though they’re a bunch of artsy crystal-healing crusties, despite the fact that good UX people base their work on actual research and theory grounded in human behavior and psychology. (Calling use of basic design principles “eye candy” for example) Of course, if a dev makes a decision on technical grounds, it must be treated as scripture as far as any remaining designers on the project are concerned. It’s no wonder so many FLOSS projects have abominable UX.
This perfectly illustrates the problem with the Internet as a whole in the age of smartphones.
Your idea of the “first step” is always “open app” but the Internet is not apps. The Internet is servers, and a web browser is the client app for most of it.
Since I know how to use the Internet, it was simple AF to get a Lemmy account going. I went to https://lemmy.world and signed up. Now I’m on Lemmy.
If all you know of the Internet is “open app” on your phone, you have a lot more to learn about the Internet as a whole.
that’s a common problem. kids don’t know how to use computers because they’re so used to using apps.
I’m 36. I’m tired of everybody taking my money. I’m tired of corporations. I’m here to get away from that.
I’m Gen Z, don’t use Linux, don’t know the first thing about programming (I know how to use file explorer though), and never intend to learn, and I’m here because I don’t wanna use the official Reddit app and because I’m convinced that the Fediverse is likely to become big in the future and I wanna be able to say I was here when it all began.
I know how to use file explorer though
What are the kids being taught that this is worth mentioning???
According to what I have heard, other elite hacker skills that are at risk of getting lost in the younger generations include searching on Google and using e-mail.
Gen-Z doesn’t even know there is more than one search engine.
Idk I just heard that apparently knowing how to use file explorer is considered impressive in modern CS classes
What in the actual fuck
This is me as well. gen z, hate that trillion dollar corporations run our social media. The fediverse is the future.
The Fediverse is the Linux of the social media world. Normal people don’t know it exists, but it will shape the inner workings of the platform(s) that will be popular in the future.
It is obviously. Just look at what Lemmy and Mastadon are. The whole concept of the fediverse is trying to get back to old school, smaller and less controlled services like message boards, IRC, etc.
Most younger, less tech savvy people don’t care about those principles. They just want a cool place with a bunch of people.
Hopefully the balance will shift a little bit to get more diversity and more users in general. In the last few days, stability issues and lack of content have lowered my engagement. It’s early days still though, so hopefully the people developing and hosting these sites keep plugging away and more people come to make it worthwhile.
I thought Lemmy didn’t collect info about me 🧐
Closest I’ve felt to BBS since, well, BBS.
The youth have an innate pressure to follow trends and their peers. They need and crave social acceptance while still lacking the means to be independent and “go their own way”, so it’s not viable to expect younger users to form the bulk of pioneering users of an unproven platform like the fediverse.
Older user will generally be more confident and independent, especially when the craving for social approval is not as powerful as it was in younger users.