Recently finally gotten around to playing Lies of P, and I’ve been enjoying my time a lot - I’d probably put it right between Sekiro and Bloodborne for my favourite Soulslikes. The boss fights have been pretty cool throughout the playthrough. However, the last few bosses, especially Laxasia and Simon, have been kicking my teeth in, so I used a summon to kill both easily.
Now, when people complain about players not playing “the right way” - aka bashing your head in for 10 days straight, using melee only, no summons, magic, cheese, whatever - I’m the first to say that it doesn’t matter how people play the game as long as they enjoy it and that they don’t have to prove they’re “more” of a gamer than someone who did adhere to these self-imposed rules.
After finishing these two fights (I’m at the Nameless Puppet now🫠), however, I kind of feel like I’ve robbed myself of a “worthy” victory because it was soo much easier with the summons than without them. Like, 30+ tries without and basically first try with a summon. It kind of took away the whole challenge and doesn’t feel like I’ve actually beaten them.
Ultimately, thinking that I’ve spent so much time learning their patterns and trying to kill them “the proper way”, it doesn’t feel as bad since I had grown frustrated quite a bit by the end, so I just wanted an easy out. Still nagging on my mind.
What are y’all thoughts on this subject? Is it warranted that I feel like I robbed myself of a proper victory? Should I just get over it? Anything similar happen to you?
Thanks!
Edit: Just remembered that I used summons quite a lot more often than initially thought. I used a summon for both Rabbit Gang fights as well as the Puppet King and the Green Swamp Monster too.
The Rabbit Gang fight felt quite cool like that, especially the first one, since it felt like a real brawl of two equal parties. I consistently got to phase 2 of both Puppet King and Swamp Monster easily but always ended up dying quickly, so the summons took the edge off quite a bit.
Edit 2: Beat Nameless Puppet, probably got a bad ending with Gepetto dying and calling me a useless puppet. But idgaf - I beat that fucker 😎
Just play the games the way it feels more fun to you. All that should matter about how you play is “are you having fun?” If the answer is yes then you’re playing the game “correctly”
The thing is, it didn’t feel fun getting beaten repeatedly, even though I’m used to it having platinumed Bloodborne and Sekiro, but it also didn’t feel satisfying to win using a summon. Then again, maybe I shouldn’t base my entire enjoyment on an arbitrary restriction and goal that I want to attain.
I think your internal conflict is valid, but I think it’s okay to let yourself off the hook from squeezing the maximum satisfaction out of a game all the time.
You felt like each of those bosses reached the point of “not being fun anymore”, and you took action to move on and find the fun again.
Likewise, using a summon doesn’t invalidate all the hard work you did already do to learn the patterns. The fights became so easy with the summon BECAUSE the work you put in prior.
You’re over-thinking it, my dude
I think that’s what I needed to hear. Thanks my guy ❤️ Appreciate it
Cheers mate 🍻
The thing is, it didn’t feel fun getting beaten repeatedly, even though I’m used to it having platinumed Bloodborne and Sekiro, but it also didn’t feel satisfying to win using a summon.
Why not? Genuine question, what about it made you not enjoy it? Did it end up feeling too easy?
Yea, I guess. There’s just something unsatisfying to killing the boss in a single attempt with a summoned NPC that pulls the aggro constantly, leaving you open to going haywire on the boss without real repercussions
If they get friends, I get friends.
Fuck every last person who gatekeeps the way someone uses intentional game mechanics.
Fr fr. I will nvr understand how people will tell you how you can’t use whole systems in a soulslike because that is ‘cheating’. “but I beat X boss without Y so I’m better than you!” and I fucking have a defect on my left thumb that makes it harder to use the left analog thumbstick, am I better than you in every game I’ve ever played?
Like people saying using bleed on elden ring makes it too easy. I’m doing a new playthrough with str/faith and let me tell you, I don’t even need to use any incantation cause 2handers do insane dmg and every 5 attacks the boss drops to his knees and I get a free 1/5 of his heath with the crit, exactly how bleed does except most bleed weapons don’t do insane dmg with their normal attacks and no boss is immune to getting knocked down (tho some are immune to crit attacks).
I cheesed the game using throwables and summons and I absolutely loved it. Without those I would’ve been frustrated and spent quality time on ignoring the tools that help me finish the game and compensating with my hard labour.
Feel that! I mostly stick to “traditional” gameplay personally because I like it that way the most, but it’s absolutely hilarious to see what people concoct when they’re creative. I’ve watched a couple cheese videos for Laxasia, for example, and outside of people like Ongbal who make any boss look like a clown, there were a lot that were using the Legion Arm or consumables a lot and to great effect. Pretty awesome, really
Yup! In the latest friends per second podcast the podcasters were talking about how From Software games (tbh Lies of P is a love letter to bloodborne) don’t explicitly give you a difficulty modifier but the games themselves have several things/objects/weapons that can modify the game difficulty for you. It’s like the setting is hidden within the game, rather than on the menu.
This idea really clicked with me. So if gamers want an easy mode, they use the “cheeses”, if they want hard mode, they ignore that, and if they want to change difficulty, they simply equip/unequip the cheese.
You said it yourself: you had spent a lot of time learning the patterns, but had grown frustrated by that time. Basically you’d have two choices
- what you did, and finish the fight easily using summons (which is easy only because you already spent a lot of time learning the boss)
- decide to do it without summon, and maybe have the satisfaction to win without help, or submit yourself to too much frustration, rendering the victory meaningless because at the end it had become a chore, and not fun at all.
At the end of the day, the most important element is to have fun. But even with summons, victory is never underserved, those games are still brutal.
People who treat single player/pve games as if they’re competitive hobbies are really weird. Their talk of “honor” and of not using mechanics (that are in the game to be used, because the developers want you to use them) because they’re “shameful” is extremely silly.
In other words: fuck the gatekeepers, do what makes YOU feel good.
It‘s a videogame, mate. People who flame others for not making a videogame as hard as possible on themselves should get their priorities checked. If it‘s fun for someone to beat the game hardmode: good for them; but if they expect everyone else to do the same to themselves: touch grass.
Use summons if you think the game‘s more fun for you that way. I do the same and I also enjoy getting summoned and helping lots of players in return.
Soulslike games are personal challenges. So whatever makes sense to you. but default if it is in the game then it’s fair game. If you want to do a run where you don’t use summons or limit yourself in some other way then that’s cool too. I like doing SL1 challenges. I’m terrible at it but it is fun to see how much i improve
So I haven’t played this game, but I think what you’re feeling makes sense.
I think for many players, myself included, they aren’t looking to have their teeth kicked in. They also aren’t looking for a walk in the park, though. Unfortunately, many games’ handicap systems (handicap meaning a mechanism that gives the player an added advantage) make it very all or nothing. It’s either super difficult, or braindead easy. I’m not saying that no one enjoys playing a game that is basically on rails and un-failable, some definitely do, but I think it’s reasonable to say many players want to be met at their edge.
The problem as a designer is everyone has a different edge, and the edge won’t even be the same for different activities when it’s the same player playing. You might get frustrated by a boss, but absolutely love meticulously exploring an environment, or thinking through a challenging logic puzzle. Others are the reverse.
I don’t really have a point to this comment, but I’m a game designer and find this stuff really interesting. It’s a very hard problem to solve but I think what you’re feeling is completely understandable. If I were you I would feel a little robbed, too!
It’s a tough balance. I feel like FromSoft, and Neowiz for Lies of P I think, have found a good balance of all these systems in play, however. It shows that FS were less experienced when looking at Dark Souls 1 when comparing it to their newer games, but they’ve made the games progressively better.
In soulsborne games, a win is a win is a win. If the boss slips the geometry the wrong way and dies, that counts. Summons are a tool in your arsenal, so use them! Also, sometimes you get to meet a badass like tarkus who solos the whole damn boss in like two seconds.
TARKUS! TARKUS! TARKUS!
I play elden ring with no points in str, end, or arcane because I play like a magic user. It may be the wrong way but it sure aint the easy way. Its actually sorta funny watching a walkthrough because yes some things challenging to the guy doing the walkthrough meta like is paltry for me but some things that are paltry for him are horrendous for me.
There are a couple linear places where it’s real rough because enemies eat up so many hits cumulatively that you just run out of FP, even with all your flasks blue. And one or two bosses that get close to that too.
Also the damage is spikier than other classes IMO.
Early on fp is rough, but at this point I have 35 mind at this point so fp is not to much a concern. Especially with light rings and the ancestral axe/talisman and the new fp regent talisman. My low end is killing me though given how one or two rolls with many bosses will not cut it along with low poise. I may have to bite the bullet and respec that.
Int is rough until you get past Liurnia, it’s all downhill from there.
Can’t complain though. With rock sling and the meteorite staff it has a better start than doing incantations.
Games should be fun. If you are having fun, you’re playing it right. If you are using a feature they put into the game, you can’t be doing it that wrong.
It’s perfectly fine to be a masochist, but it doesn’t make anyone better’n anyone else, or the games better than anything else. Knowing what you like, managing game difficulty, knowing its features and “optimizing” your enjoyment are just another kind of gaming skill. You should never feel pressure to play at harder difficulties than you want, because… why would you? I know “souls culture” is full of screeching 13-year-olds with infinitely long lists of things that make you “nOt a ReAl GaMeR” despite being literally designed and implemented as part of the game, but fuck it: that’s why nobody listens to screeching 13-year-olds.
If a summon was available, I’d use it. My logic is that the designers gave me access to these tools, why not?
Having said that, the Nameless Puppet is the only fight where you don’t get the summon - so that’s the one time the designers expect you to “git gud”.
Great fight, the hardest I’ve ever seen in a Souls-like, but technically fair. Just gotta learn those parry timings, yo.
I’ll be honest, I was a little pissed they didn’t make summons available for Nameless Puppet, but I got it in the end after 2 more hours of trying yesterday. Phase 1 was super easy by the time I finished the fight, phase 2 was a super close call. Ended up winning with no heals left and a couple thermites for the remaining health lol
Harder than Isshin or Owl Father? I remember struggling for several days trying to kill Isshin but got it in the end. Sometimes it felt like Nameless Puppet was easier but also harder at the same time
Nameless Puppet was definitely harder than Isshin, in my opinion.
Isshin was tough but very fairly designed. Part of NP’s moveset in Phase 2 is a bit gimmicky and hard to dodge/block, which is a bit of a pain.
I think Isshin is easier only in that it’s a better designed fight that rewards you more for learning his moves and tells.
My only soulslike games have been Sekiro and Lies of P (some bloodborne years ago but didn’t finish it).
Like others have said, play the way it feels right to you. I get that you’re saying it’s somewhere in between - getting frustrated solo, but too easy with summons. If you get to that point again, maybe try using summons to learn the boss (EG get to the second phase every time to then learn the second phase) but don’t allow yourself to complete it during that round. Then when you feel ready, back to solo.
Personally, what I enjoy about these games is the design of each encounter. I feel like I only experience the full intended design of the fight if it’s 1v1, hitting a boss that is attacking some other npc isn’t engaging to me. So I don’t touch summons.
If the game is well designed, even a really hard boss should feel fair - when I die, I should be able to understand what I did wrong and what I still need to learn, and once I’ve seen it all I need to hone my reactions to each tell and pattern. Then it doesn’t matter how many tries it takes, as long as I’m still enjoying that process (yes it’s still frustrating at times but that usually just means the win will feel even better).
If I’m not enjoying the process, I’ll put it down for the day, and play again when I’m into it. If it’s so bad that I don’t ever feel like playing it again, then that’s that I guess. Hasn’t happened yet (except Bloodborne, but I wasn’t as much of a fan of the genre back then, will play it again at some point. Remaster when?)
The point about preferring solo play against bosses is something I resonate with. Their movesets rarely translate well into 1v2 fights, so it feels like something’s off when I go in with a summon. It’s not something like Monster Hunter where the aggression of the monster shifts dynamically between hunters whereas many Soulslike bosses feel “locked in” on a single player
Also, that’s a good tip with using the summon to get the second phase quicker. Hadn’t thought of that before. The temptation to keep them alive for as long as possible to get to an easier win was always a factor prior lol
Yeah I feel like it would be a nice in-between option for ya, as you mentioned the second phase troubles in your edit. It really is harder to learn a second phase when you’re only getting through the first on every 5th try or so (Laxasia was a pain in the ass for this, I never really got a good feel for phase 2, just managed it somehow on a lucky run with wild and terrified inputs haha)
I think having Sekiro as my first soulslike taught me that there’s a big gap between surviving a phase and really nailing a phase though, so I try to take that with me and get phase 1 to point of just warming up. And looking for more and more windows to inflict damage - it’s amazing how quick some of the fights can be when you find more of them
I hear that, dude. I remember struggling a lot with Isshin back on my first playthrough. Having played through the game multiple times now, charmless and with the bell too, the fight got kinda trivial, actually. Once you get the rhythm down again, it’s all just muscle memory. I hope to get there with Lies of P too
Haha well as much as that mindset helped me (and yes transformed some Sekiro fights from hard as hell to seeing how quickly I could put them down), a lot of Lies of P still came down to desparate messy scraps for survival. Especially in NG+, I got smashed by that damn green monster so hard
I don’t summon real people unless I’m truly desperate, but I absolutely use what the game has given me. I don’t like to repeatedly have my ass handed to me, and while I could “git gud” (and would have done so in my teens and 20s), I’d rather enjoy my limited play time.
I’ve always thought the soulsborne games encourage taking advantage of everything you can. Kite enemies. Pick them off from a distance with a bow. Summon a friend to help. The systems are there, they didn’t get created by accident, feel free to use them as you see fit. Or don’t. Just don’t be a judgey asshole towards other people for how they play.
Wholly agree. They’re tools to be used by the players, so it’s all an intended way to play the game