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Its only a genocide if it comes from the third reich. Anything else is just sparkling ethnic cleansing.
Turkey: See I told you guys
(Preface: I am team genocide. I also live in Germany. Germany’s politics are a disgrace, but I digress.)
What annoys me about this is that this discussion gets so much media attention and focus, while it doesn’t matter in this very moment. I understand that there are implications if it will be defined as a genocide. But right now people are being killed every day en masse and they frankly give a crap about whether they died in a mass murder or terrorist attack or a genocide.
It reminds me of the early days of the Ukraine war when everyone was so obsessed with comparing Putin to Hitler (Putler is still a popular term) and the discussion was high on whether Putins actions amount to fascism or not, with a lot of internet laymen but also experts on that subject chiming in. When I asked a half Russian, half Ukrainian what their opinion was, their reply was something like “who the fuck cares? Call it a chicken pea pie, nobody cares, people are being killed, I don’t give a crap. Somewhen in the future people will be looking back and asking the same question, but it doesn’t matter right now.” And it stuck with me.
If I understand correctly, the ICJ will rule again on the case in a couple of years (?), which obviously isn’t relevant right now. It seems like the ruling would have an aftermath in retrospect but even if they ruled it were a genocide today, nothing much would change directly - but please correct me if I am wrong here.
But what definitely doesn’t matter is what we think. What matters is what is happening. And it doesn’t need a name to be evil and detrimental.
great meme OP or should i say groß meme!
Being on the wrong side of history on the same topic 75 year apart
Every Jew in modern day Germany…
They are already. Antisemitic violence has been on the rise here since October 7. Antisemites see Israel do a thing and think “I know, let’s hurt some Jews”
I think the bigger problem is Germany arresting Jews for antisemitism.
?
Protesting Israel is considered antisemitism in Germany even if you’re Jewish. Real antisemitism is also on the rise but all pro-Palestinian protests are also lumped in. Anti-Zionist jews (Jewish Voice for Peace, etc) always on the forefront of these marches.
Genocide, as in the legal definition, requires intent. As far as I see it Germany is not even trying to deny anything Israel did or does, or argue evidence in any other way, all the government is basically doing is saying “Your honour, our client can’t have intent because they’re demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity”. Not in that many words, but to that effect.
And a sane person/nation would willingly engage in genocide? Insanity doesn’t negate intent, only ones ability to distinguish reality or prevent themselves from carrying out actions they know to be immoral. Inb4 India, China, the USA, and Russia of course but you take my point?
The thing about insanity is made up by the person eho posted that comment. What they actually say is that Israel’s intent is to defend themselves against the armed attacks by the Hamas, so self-defense, and not to commit a genocide.
That’s such a weird take. I mean you’re right, that is exactly the argument, but it doesn’t hold any water. To defend against Hamas attacks, Israel would need a huge border fence (check), a vastly superior military (check), constant surveillance on Gaza (check), Iron Dome (check), and even morally questionable methods like full control over the Palestinian population registry to track criminals (check). The fact that they had all those and still failed self-defense just adds to the argument that killing tens of thousands of civilians and destroying the majority of civilian infrastructure (while making the vast majority unusable) and completely debilitating the medical infrastructure and blocking humanitarian aid (also via criminal methods) and
Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
is actually genocide.
Everyone seems to be forgetting who started this in the first place.
Israel is sure as hell gonna finish it
Everyone seems to be forgetting who started this in the first place.
Israel?
try again
Maybe because what is happening is not genocide?
When your argument is trying to explain the technical definition of genocide, you’ve lost the fucking argument, it’s a genocide.
Technically you aren’t brain dead but some might say you are brain dead. Is that the same thing?
Youre gonna have to be a bit more specific in your defense. They have been killing all Palestinians, have been saying that all Palestinians are Hamas (including kids), and have said multiple times they want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
How is that not genocide?
Benjamin Netanyahu has in recent days called on politicians to choose “their words carefully” so as not to give ammunition ahead of the hearing in The Hague, Vaturi on Wednesday reaffirmed his calls to “wipe Gaza off the face of the earth,” and added: “Gaza must be burned.” “I stand behind my words… It is better to burn down buildings rather than have [Israeli] soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there,” he said in a radio interview before calling for the “elimination” of the estimated 100,000 Palestinians left in northern Gaza. “I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them,” added Vaturi, who belongs to Likud, the right-wing party led by Netanyahu.
If there was an intent to destroy Gaza and all it’s inhabitants Israel would have done so already. I probably need to see more justification than some emotional outburst a few days after getting terror attacked and israeli citizens kidnapped.
Your arguments are weak. Yes there is a sad situation where a lot of Palestinians are dying but it’s not a genocide.
What do you call ethnically cleansing and starving an entire population? Is that not genocide?
I think Lemmy likes perpetuating a particular propaganda that keeps reiterating the same talking points until they are engraved in your brain. Genocide is an extremely specific judgement that requires both evidence of specific intent and specific action. You can make claims to one but not to both. The intent doesn’t match the action.
So saying “wipe Gaza off the face of the Earth” followed by almost continuous bombardment isn’t in your eyes evidence of specific intent and action, because they haven’t wiped them out yet? Therefore, by your own definition, the colonizing Europeans never commited genocide against the indigenous American population, because there’s still native Americans left and they have their own nature reserves to reside in?
It was literally like 1 day after an invasion. You need to recognize that emotions came to play.
As for your genocide of indigenous Americans, it’s a completely different topic. Don’t whatabout here please.
That’s not whataboutism is lol.
He’s not defending/minimizing doing something by pointing out the others have also done it… he’s comparing 2 situations, and saying that the definition of genocide is not limited to extinction.
Again, what so you call ethnically cleansing and starving an entire population?
I as a german asked an expert on that topic. Chatgpt. According to chatGPT there is no genocide if you don’t kill them with the intention to wipe them from the planet. So if for example you drop accidentally poison into their water because you mixed the Botox and sugar bottle in the water station then even if they all die it is not a genocide.
And since chatgpt is infallable this is the only truth.
To meet the legal definition of genocide, you also have to have the intent to destroy a particular group of people. So, legally speaking, your example isn’t genocide according to any source.
I don’t know the motives behind the Israel/Palestine conflict or how it started, but if it doesn’t involve an intent to destroy Palestinians specifically, I guess I could see how GPT’s take is valid. Like, the war in Ukraine is egregious too, but that by itself doesn’t make it a genocide.
Deliberate displacement of particular ethnic or religious groups is also recognized as genocide, in particular because it’s often a pretext. ChatGPT is wrong, and needs to read the UN definition.
How it started: the Ottomans sided with the Nazis, so when they lost, the Ottomans also lost their land and the Allies got it, following the usual war rule where the winner wins the land. Dividing up the land is where the British Mandate for Palestine came from, under which we gave 2/3 of the land to the Arabs (Transjordan) and 1/3 of the land to Israel. But the Arabs refused to accept this and started the first of a series of wars against Israel. The Arabs, now also partially known as Palestinians, have continually refused to accept any peace deal, starting wars whenever possible and so far losing every one of them. Israel has repeatedly accepted peace deals, even at the cost of land, but it only works if both sides agree, which they don’t: the only deal the Arabs want is all the land and no Israel, which also means no Jews (proof: look at the Jewish communities within existing Arab states (TLDR: non-existent or shrinking)), which means the Arabs are hellbent on a genocide of all the Jews, and are determined to achieve that or die trying.
Glad to see Germany addressing the conflict rationally, unlike half of Lemmy which just screams “genocide!” in every thread.
Still waiting to hear an explanation for why there are no Jews in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, and Egypt, when there were historical populations in those countries (hint: it’s the G word)
You mean that G word that happened right after Israel came into existence and proceeded to demonstrate its intent to conquer by immediately disregarding its own borders with Palestine?
Genocide ain’t it no matter who’s doing it and for what reason, but it’s real fuckin’ convenient to just ignore a major instigating factor that just happens to be the country you’re trying to apologism for.
You mean after the Arab neighbours started a G on the jews as soon as the Brits left?
Sure the jews aren’t much better but it’s clear they’d be G’d themselves if it wasn’t for their weapons
Jewish people from all over the world (not only parts of Europe invaded by Nazi Germany) were brought there to displace the Arab population that was forced to flee after a campaign of terrorist attacks.
The different religions didn’t have much beef with each other until that ethnic cleansing by religious fanatics who actually think that specific strip of desert land was gifted to them by god.
The only people who committed Jewish genocide were the Nazis. That’s why if at all a Jewish state should have been carved out from German territory and not have Arabs pay with their homeland.
Jews went there on their own. In no small part from predominantly muslim countries where they faced systemic discrimination and, often, persecution.
Those from the Ottoman empire who didn’t were largely genocided by their muslim neighbours to ‘punish’ them for the creation of Israel, which should give you clue that your idea that “different religions didn’t have much beef” is complete bs.
Not to say the zionist jews aren’t among the worst people as well, of course
Jews went there on their own.
To displace the native population. That’s a war crime.
In no small part from predominantly muslim countries where they faced systemic discrimination and, often, persecution.
Not genocide, though. Unlike what’s happening to Palestinians now which is another coordinated effort to get rid of them. The civilians are systematically attacked and pushed towards Egypt for that reason.
‘punish’ them for the creation of Israel, which should give you clue that your idea that “different religions didn’t have much beef” is complete bs.
When I write that “different religions didn’t have much beef” before the creation of Israel by religious fanatics, any action that happens afterwards is no counter argument to that.
Yeah, I think this idea comes from not really knowing much history then.
As long as there are different religions, there’s been religious beef.
Jews living as minorities in predominantly islamic countries have experienced this by various degrees. Islamic law demands that they always be treated as second class citizens and, to no surprise, they have. And in certain periods in certain places, this was spiced up with some forced conversion or genocide.
Read up on this for a nice example. It’s like claiming black African slaves had a nice life in the US until some troublemakers started demanding equal rights.
The mass migration towards Palestine and zionist efforts to create a majority jewish state there aren’t a pinnacle of humanity, but it’s important to know where it comes from
As an atheist I’m far from being an Islam defender but a special tax for “book religions” other than Islam and bans on certain jobs isn’t genocide and really not an excuse to displace or even murder a Muslim population who wasn’t even the ruling class that made those laws in the first place.
Islam isn’t treating Judaism and Christianity the way it would treat polytheists like Hindus. Now that’s a whole other can of worms but Palestinian genocide is inexcusable no matter how much anyone tries to justify it belittle it.
They should just give all of Palestine to Israel and be done with it. Give the Palestinians reservations in the US or Canada and just let the Jews live in peace. It’s not like Israel is going to cause any problems since it would have all of Israel for itself at that point.
Just give all of Israel to Palestine. It belongs to the Palestinian people. The former Israelis can live in Palestine–there were already Palestinian Jews–but they do not deserve an Israeli government, and ought to give the Palestinians their homes back.
Forgot to say: Is your username “cumskin_genocide”? I’m not using it as an argument, just amused
As a German: I think it really is not our job to criticise Israel/the jewish people. There are about 200 other countries that are capable of voicing their opinions. I seriously doubt Hamas left Israel much of a choice, though. They are still keeping and mistreating hostages. What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
No, obviously not.
Killing international aid workers, Palestinian men, women, and children indiscriminately doesn’t seem like a viable solution either and calling everyone who criticizes your military policy “anti-Semitic” is not what you should do either.
what about the genocide claim buddy bud
Whatabout the hair in your butt?
my butt hair is more on topic that your comment my guy
don’t forget to wear that keffiyeh!
What the fuck is a “keffiyeh”?
