You didn’t criticize it, you simply stated that it was bad, in a clear attempt at baiting a reaction out of people. This is fragile loser behavior and indicative of an unwell mind. Seek healing.
I also currently have more problems with Wayland than with Xorg and find a few design decisions highly questionable, but that’s no reason to completely talk it down in the way you do. You don’t have to like it, you can criticize it, but you should stay civil.
You are too sensible. He just said Wayland doesn’t rock, and its just a fact.
If Wayland “rocks” why it need much more work to implement a WM ? (please don’t talk me about wlroots, its not part of Wayland), and in the end it fragments Linux desktop !
Wayland will replace X but it is not a brillant project.
More work to implement a WM without using something like wlroots? That’s a fundamentally flawed argument, you seem to believe there is no X protocol, when in fact, X11 is just an implementation of the X protocol, just like wlroots is an implementation of the wayland protocol.
Have you ever tried implementing the X protocol without X11? Good luck. There’s no other implementations because creating one is awful. Wlroots solved the same problem as X11 did, actually implementing the protocol in a way that other projects can make their own WM’s/whatnot easily.
wlroots IS equivalent to X11, wayland is equivalent to the X protocol. Nobody has reimplemented the X protocol.
wlroots is an implementation, just like x11, so, yes, that is how it works on the x.org side of things.
While I agree with your conclusion, your explanation is not right.
X11 is the 11th version of the X protocol, it is not an implementation. The Xorg server is the only relevant implementation for the server side of things, and for X11 window managers and X11 compositors there’s only libx11 (which is very horrible) or libxcb (slightly less horrible). Both of those are about as high level as libwayland-server + libwayland-scanner - which is to say, nearly as low level as it gets.
wlroots in contrast provides comparatively high level libraries / components, which make the implementation of compositors less of a headache than having to mess around with barely documented xcb functions.
Ok, my sentence was unfair. What I meant is Wlroots is not standard as Xorg.
Wayland has 3 “Xorgs” with eventually their own extensions that can hurt portablity between DEs/WM. Whats the point of a protocol if it doesn’t ensure your app will work on all Wayland ?
This exact thing happened with x11, you clearly have not researched the history of this.
Your app will work across all of Wayland, the reason this happened is because wlroots came out after gnome and kde made their implementations… kde and wlroots have worked together to the point where kde’s compositor is almost identical to wlroots. The only apps I’m aware of that don’t work are display managers but that’s only because the protocol for that hasn’t been stabilized yet.
True, I only focused on the “Frankenstein” comment. The initial comment wasn’t this condescending. It was quite cynical, but I am not sure that warranted these many downvotes.
Anyway: there was an intesting article recently that explained the architecture, and it makes sense. But it also shows the downsides.
Remote full terminals, not just remote shells, are invaluable. Remotely displaying old HP Openview. Remotely displaying tn3270 to access the mainframe payrole system that only allowlisted the bastion host for security. Remote displaying legacy X apps, like my engineers migrating ancient flight control documents from Interleaf to QuickSilver, other Motif applications. There are industries still needing and using this stuff. Hell, there are still Apollo systems around running X11R4 and rlogin running around in server closets on token ring because of data that could never be migrated. Congrats on 42, you’re still young.
If only. Took a long time to trust KDE again after their disaster called KDE 4. Worried as hell now that they intend to remove functionality in KDE 6, as well as making new wayland only features. And if you dare remind them of KDE 4, they get their pants in a twist.
Ok, lemmy isn’t showing me the full context of our thread anymore… So I’m with you on the trauma of those terrible creations. Where were you going with it?
Because it isn’t a proper X12. Because waypipe is an add-on, not treated as the most important and core internal functionality. Because it’s made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for Linux native games. Because dev work left real X to work on a toy and not backport features to X. Because until recently, it punished anyone on nvidia. Wish Wayland would just die and a proper X12 produced.
The whole point of Wayland to be a successor to X11 but not using X, made by the same devs that developed X11 to specifically move away from X. Backporting features would miss the whole point because devs left because adding new features to X was getting too difficult and messy according to them, due to how big and all-encompassing and inter-connected that protocol was.
And being punished for using Nvidia was Nvidia’s fault, not Wayland’s.
The only proper thing to do was to continue X development. It just needed proper funding and for people to quit battling over licences. Throwing it all out and replacing it with something not even based around network displays was madness. Now we have this hodgepodge of kluges taped together to try and barely imitate what we once had. It’s an embarrassing disgrace.
The “just” there is doing a lot of work considering the devs themselves disagreed. Sorry, but, I’m going to trust their judgement.
…also the whole networked displays themselves was what caused a lot of problems, according to the devs. Using it for a modern display stack was like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Terminals have fallen out of favor ages ago, and personal computing devices today favour things like high responsiveness, clean images, and high refresh rates instead. And we got enough computing power to just stream a video stream directly if that’s needed now.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing? Sure remote graphical sessions are neat but there are only a few people who really need it or not? At least I do not see how this is really that beneficial on linux compared to just basic shell stuff that most people are using when doing something remotely. Maybe it is something that the big businesses are using but then there will probably be a discussion to really add it to the protocol directly (if that is even actually needed, waypipe is a software stack that works (with limitations) with the current protocol; wayvnc for wlroots-based compositors seems to work fine and gnome and weston also implement some kind of RDP)
Also, what do you mean “it is made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for linux native games”? Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added, just like using the pulseaudio server for pipewire until pipewire is completely supported? I am currently slowly transitioning to wayland so I don’t know if there are actually any so please tell me if it is the case or if I am missing something.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing?
Because it is. Use it every day. Very important feature for work.
only a few people who really need it or not?
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
wayvnc
That you even think that is a solution shows you know nothing about the problem.
Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added
Please… tell me which games you speak of? What is this list native games for Linux? I hope you don’t mean games running on Wine. That’s another huge problem that the kids all seem to just adore these days, and an entirely other argument.
If you want to game, stick to Windows. Linux is for work and those who like having a UNIX like system at home. Wayland and Wine are not for either of those.
Unfortunately your usecase is rare, so, there’s little motivation to fix it. This isn’t because everyone else “just plays around” with their computers, it’s that very few people do what you do, and so it isn’t considered the most important usecase, and devs care about more important things. Furthermore there’s NO DOWNSIDE whatsoever to making it an add-on. This can all be worked on later, it being an add-on won’t impede any progress, in fact, it’ll make it EASIER to make progress, because the core protocol will be rather solid in foundation.
When your games have an issue, don’t blame Linux. Don’t even mention Linux. It’ll be your own fault for using a compatibility layer (Wine/Proton). The games are written for Windows, they shouldn’t get any of your money.
Because it discourages native Linux game development for something ‘good enough’ using a windows compatibility layer that really is just a large hack. That’s why I care. Games for Linux should be made naively for Linux, to bolster the Linux operating system. When wine/proton fails, people confuse it with being the fault of Linux, when it’s not. It is the fault of running software not made for Linux to begin with on a compatibility layer. Those problems unnecessarily tarnish Linux. It’s wrong, it really shouldn’t be allowed, and I’d be happy to see Wine/Proton sued out of existence to prevent it.
Remote desktop is not what I’m talking about. Remote applications. Individual applications. Remote desktop is way too much when you want individual apps and for them to respond to your local window manager and copy & paste buffer.
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
What is your definition of playing? I use it to code, access my server for some self-hosted services, do office stuff and sure, also for gaming and watching videos. Am I disallowed to wanting to develop at ease with a minimal setup compared to windows and avoid shit like forced cloud stuff because I am gaming on this os? Isn’t it my choice and compliant to free and open source software to have the freedom to use the OS one has the best experience with?
About the gaming stuff:
As I have said, I am just currently converting to wayland, so I don’t know of issues because I haven’t tried linux native games extensively. Wine doesn’t have working wayland support but is still (in my short experience) working with xwayland. Linux native games I will try soon are Cassette Beasts, Stardew Valley and maybe Cross Code at some time, all actually native games.
Oh! There’s the wayland brigade. I dared speak out against their Frankensteinian creation. Thanks for the downvotes.
Well I wasn’t gonna downvote before, but now I am. Can’t stand this kind of fragility.
It’s the Wayland folks who can’t handle criticism. You are evidence of that. :)
You didn’t criticize it, you simply stated that it was bad, in a clear attempt at baiting a reaction out of people. This is fragile loser behavior and indicative of an unwell mind. Seek healing.
Yeah sure. Ok there, bud.
No it’s the way you speak about it.
I also currently have more problems with Wayland than with Xorg and find a few design decisions highly questionable, but that’s no reason to completely talk it down in the way you do. You don’t have to like it, you can criticize it, but you should stay civil.
You are too sensible. He just said Wayland doesn’t rock, and its just a fact. If Wayland “rocks” why it need much more work to implement a WM ? (please don’t talk me about wlroots, its not part of Wayland), and in the end it fragments Linux desktop ! Wayland will replace X but it is not a brillant project.
More work to implement a WM without using something like wlroots? That’s a fundamentally flawed argument, you seem to believe there is no X protocol, when in fact, X11 is just an implementation of the X protocol, just like wlroots is an implementation of the wayland protocol.
Have you ever tried implementing the X protocol without X11? Good luck. There’s no other implementations because creating one is awful. Wlroots solved the same problem as X11 did, actually implementing the protocol in a way that other projects can make their own WM’s/whatnot easily.
wlroots IS equivalent to X11, wayland is equivalent to the X protocol. Nobody has reimplemented the X protocol.
wlroots is an implementation, just like x11, so, yes, that is how it works on the x.org side of things.
While I agree with your conclusion, your explanation is not right.
X11 is the 11th version of the X protocol, it is not an implementation. The Xorg server is the only relevant implementation for the server side of things, and for X11 window managers and X11 compositors there’s only libx11 (which is very horrible) or libxcb (slightly less horrible). Both of those are about as high level as libwayland-server + libwayland-scanner - which is to say, nearly as low level as it gets.
wlroots in contrast provides comparatively high level libraries / components, which make the implementation of compositors less of a headache than having to mess around with barely documented xcb functions.
Ok, my sentence was unfair. What I meant is Wlroots is not standard as Xorg. Wayland has 3 “Xorgs” with eventually their own extensions that can hurt portablity between DEs/WM. Whats the point of a protocol if it doesn’t ensure your app will work on all Wayland ?
This exact thing happened with x11, you clearly have not researched the history of this.
Your app will work across all of Wayland, the reason this happened is because wlroots came out after gnome and kde made their implementations… kde and wlroots have worked together to the point where kde’s compositor is almost identical to wlroots. The only apps I’m aware of that don’t work are display managers but that’s only because the protocol for that hasn’t been stabilized yet.
True, I only focused on the “Frankenstein” comment. The initial comment wasn’t this condescending. It was quite cynical, but I am not sure that warranted these many downvotes.
Anyway: there was an intesting article recently that explained the architecture, and it makes sense. But it also shows the downsides.
https://pointieststick.com/2023/09/17/so-lets-talk-about-this-wayland-thing/
It is something to be squashed, like bug, yes? Yes.
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Sigh, kids these days.
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Remote full terminals, not just remote shells, are invaluable. Remotely displaying old HP Openview. Remotely displaying tn3270 to access the mainframe payrole system that only allowlisted the bastion host for security. Remote displaying legacy X apps, like my engineers migrating ancient flight control documents from Interleaf to QuickSilver, other Motif applications. There are industries still needing and using this stuff. Hell, there are still Apollo systems around running X11R4 and rlogin running around in server closets on token ring because of data that could never be migrated. Congrats on 42, you’re still young.
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If only. Took a long time to trust KDE again after their disaster called KDE 4. Worried as hell now that they intend to remove functionality in KDE 6, as well as making new wayland only features. And if you dare remind them of KDE 4, they get their pants in a twist.
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Ok, lemmy isn’t showing me the full context of our thread anymore… So I’m with you on the trauma of those terrible creations. Where were you going with it?
Why don’t you like Wayland?
Drag and drop often does not work
Because it isn’t a proper X12. Because waypipe is an add-on, not treated as the most important and core internal functionality. Because it’s made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for Linux native games. Because dev work left real X to work on a toy and not backport features to X. Because until recently, it punished anyone on nvidia. Wish Wayland would just die and a proper X12 produced.
The whole point of Wayland to be a successor to X11 but not using X, made by the same devs that developed X11 to specifically move away from X. Backporting features would miss the whole point because devs left because adding new features to X was getting too difficult and messy according to them, due to how big and all-encompassing and inter-connected that protocol was.
And being punished for using Nvidia was Nvidia’s fault, not Wayland’s.
There are probably Xorg maintainers in that project, but I doubt about X11 protocol creators. This is a different thing.
The only proper thing to do was to continue X development. It just needed proper funding and for people to quit battling over licences. Throwing it all out and replacing it with something not even based around network displays was madness. Now we have this hodgepodge of kluges taped together to try and barely imitate what we once had. It’s an embarrassing disgrace.
The “just” there is doing a lot of work considering the devs themselves disagreed. Sorry, but, I’m going to trust their judgement.
…also the whole networked displays themselves was what caused a lot of problems, according to the devs. Using it for a modern display stack was like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Terminals have fallen out of favor ages ago, and personal computing devices today favour things like high responsiveness, clean images, and high refresh rates instead. And we got enough computing power to just stream a video stream directly if that’s needed now.
Not a single x11 developer agrees with you.
The old ones who knew the code best left.
Because x11 was awful to code for… duh.
So re-make it per the spec, don’t re-invent the wheel and forget half the wheel.
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Oh yes, resort to calling me names. But yes, I know what is right, you do not. Simple as that.
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I probably should…
My brother in Christ, it’s Nvidia punishing you for using Wayland.
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It’s called having a job. Try it sometime.
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Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing? Sure remote graphical sessions are neat but there are only a few people who really need it or not? At least I do not see how this is really that beneficial on linux compared to just basic shell stuff that most people are using when doing something remotely. Maybe it is something that the big businesses are using but then there will probably be a discussion to really add it to the protocol directly (if that is even actually needed, waypipe is a software stack that works (with limitations) with the current protocol; wayvnc for wlroots-based compositors seems to work fine and gnome and weston also implement some kind of RDP)
Also, what do you mean “it is made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for linux native games”? Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added, just like using the pulseaudio server for pipewire until pipewire is completely supported? I am currently slowly transitioning to wayland so I don’t know if there are actually any so please tell me if it is the case or if I am missing something.
Because it is. Use it every day. Very important feature for work.
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
That you even think that is a solution shows you know nothing about the problem.
Please… tell me which games you speak of? What is this list native games for Linux? I hope you don’t mean games running on Wine. That’s another huge problem that the kids all seem to just adore these days, and an entirely other argument.
If you want to game, stick to Windows. Linux is for work and those who like having a UNIX like system at home. Wayland and Wine are not for either of those.
There’s really no truth to anything you’re saying here, whatsoever.
Linux is fantastic for gaming, I use it exclusively, the steam deck being a real thriving product is evidence of this.
Only core functionality should be the default, everything else SHOULD be an add-on, including remote desktop. Insane bloat is what caused X11 to fail. A fix is in the works: https://planet.kde.org/arjen-hiemstra-2023-08-08-remote-desktop-using-the-rdp-protocol-for-plasma-wayland/
Unfortunately your usecase is rare, so, there’s little motivation to fix it. This isn’t because everyone else “just plays around” with their computers, it’s that very few people do what you do, and so it isn’t considered the most important usecase, and devs care about more important things. Furthermore there’s NO DOWNSIDE whatsoever to making it an add-on. This can all be worked on later, it being an add-on won’t impede any progress, in fact, it’ll make it EASIER to make progress, because the core protocol will be rather solid in foundation.
When your games have an issue, don’t blame Linux. Don’t even mention Linux. It’ll be your own fault for using a compatibility layer (Wine/Proton). The games are written for Windows, they shouldn’t get any of your money.
Mentioning steam deck is fine. Valve supports it. It’s pretty official. I don’t see why you care.
Because it discourages native Linux game development for something ‘good enough’ using a windows compatibility layer that really is just a large hack. That’s why I care. Games for Linux should be made naively for Linux, to bolster the Linux operating system. When wine/proton fails, people confuse it with being the fault of Linux, when it’s not. It is the fault of running software not made for Linux to begin with on a compatibility layer. Those problems unnecessarily tarnish Linux. It’s wrong, it really shouldn’t be allowed, and I’d be happy to see Wine/Proton sued out of existence to prevent it.
Remote desktop is not what I’m talking about. Remote applications. Individual applications. Remote desktop is way too much when you want individual apps and for them to respond to your local window manager and copy & paste buffer.
What’s wrong with waypipe exactly?
It’s an add on, not part of the main spec. That functionality should be the most important core piece, not an afterthought.
What is your definition of playing? I use it to code, access my server for some self-hosted services, do office stuff and sure, also for gaming and watching videos. Am I disallowed to wanting to develop at ease with a minimal setup compared to windows and avoid shit like forced cloud stuff because I am gaming on this os? Isn’t it my choice and compliant to free and open source software to have the freedom to use the OS one has the best experience with?
About the gaming stuff: As I have said, I am just currently converting to wayland, so I don’t know of issues because I haven’t tried linux native games extensively. Wine doesn’t have working wayland support but is still (in my short experience) working with xwayland. Linux native games I will try soon are Cassette Beasts, Stardew Valley and maybe Cross Code at some time, all actually native games.
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