Twenty century US foreign policy was about supporting capitalism, not democracy. I assume you’re referring to the CIA lead coups in the 20th century that upended socialist countries. I would like to think we’ve learned from these mistakes in the 21st century.
As for drone strikes in Yemen in the 21st century, which is what I think you are referring to, killing civilians is obviously wrong. I think not fighting terrorist organizations would also be wrong. It’s in the interest of democracies to fight back against terrorists.
edit: Oh and I am ethnically Jewish, so I do have a lot of opinions about Palestine and Israel. Israel is an apartheid state, but I still believe in a two-state solution.
The coup in Bolivia and the more recent attempts on Venezuela were just a few years ago.
I assume with Libya and Syria you’d just accept the flimsy pretext the US offered like with Yemen despite the barbarous butchering of civilians in all cases. Do you think the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were also for democracy? Are you that far gone?
From what I’ve read about Bolivia quickly sounds like that was a conspiracy theory from the dictator. I haven’t heard of any coup attempt by the CIA in Venezuela recently. At a glance there seems to be Silver Corp that did Operation Gideon. It’s not a state sponsored group. I don’t support the concept of just toppling one dictator in exchange for a US friendly dictator. The incentives a dictator has will inevitably lead them to side with other dictatorships over democracies regardless of who put them in power.
I disagree with drone strikes that killed civilians. However, letting terrorists like ISIS run around in Syria and Iraq and now Africa more recently, is a bad idea when they make it their business to butcher civilians for not being extreme as them.
I’m honestly not super familiar NATO’s intervention of Libya. I’ve read a bit. Sounds like it was bungled quite badly.
I mean Bush wanted to kill Saddam, because of the assassination attempt on his dad, Bush senior, by Saddam. The political reality is that we did bring democracy to those countries. I think what we’ve learned from Afghanistan and Iraq is that democracy cannot be forced. People have to want to live, die, and fight for it. And in the case of Iraq, democratic intuitions have to be maintained, or else the country will backslide to authoritarianism.
@GarbageShoot addressed everything else and debunked it, but I want to talk about this:
I don’t need to defend ever [sic] single thing the US has done wrong or what you think the US has done wrong to enjoy and understand the benefits of democracy. US is certainly not perfect [sic] but it beats living in a dictatorship that’s for sure. I want the US to support and defend democracies.
This sort of nonsense of dismissing all anti-democratic actions by the U.S. government (ex. below) by saying “I don’t need to defend everything” is absurd and ignorant.
the insertion of the dictator Syngman Rhee in south Korea; the support for the ROK’s government as it placed 188k people in prison for sympathizing with socialism/communism (Korea’s Place in the Sun, p. 349), put 70,000 leftists in concentration camps (Korea’s Place in the Sun, p. 223), and massacred tens of thousands in Jeju for protesting; the undemocratic and uneducated division of Korea (Patriots, Traitors and Empires, p. 73), etc.
inciting terrorism and supporting Nazi “stay behind” troops in countries with communist resistance movements (Italy, Greece, Germany, Turkey, etc.) with the intention of pinning this terrorism on communist movements and tricking the population into voting for the U.S.-backed parties (see Paul L. Williams’ Operation Gladio)
the support for the coup by dictator Pinochet against the popularly elected Allende in Chile
“I don’t see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves” - Kissenger
every single action in the Cold War that subverted democratic principles (see The Jakarta Method)
There comes a certain point when the “democracy” thesis must be questioned; in which U.S. military intervention did America “fight for democracy”? You’ve brought up Iraq and Afghanistan. What evidence is there that these were genuine pursuits for democracy? Afghanistan HAD democracy under the DRA, but the U.S. decided to undermine social reform in the country to supplant Soviet influence in the Middle East:
“The United States’ larger interest…would be served by the demise of the Taraki regime, despite whatever setbacks this might mean for future social and economic reform in Afghanistan… The overthrow of the DRA [Democratic Republic of Afghanistan] would show the rest of the world, particularly the Third World, that the Soviet’s view of the socialist course of history as being inevitable is not accurate” (US State Department memorandum reproduced in Cockburn and St. Clair’s Whiteout, pp. 262–63).
We know that the lie of support for the Mujahideen being afforded by the U.S. merely to push back against Soviet invasion is false, since the U.S. admitted to supporting the Mujahideen at least half a year before the invasion (US Foreign Policy and the Soviet-Afghan War, Lowenstien). The volatile conditions in Afghanistan are the exact result of the U.S. fathering the Taliban for influence in the region, and the intervention in Afghanistan had no democratic results apart from furthering U.S. interests (and U.S. corporate oil interests, see Parenti’s “Afghanistan: Another Untold Story”), which were decidedly undemocratic. By the way, the U.S. is still starving people in Afghanistan.
And Iraq, this MUST be the single democratic war fought by the U.S. right? Apart from killing more people than Saddam ever did (and this is of course excluding that the U.S. supported Saddam as he gassed Iran)., giving children birth defects and cancer from depleted Uranium, s-xually abusing and torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and so on, the effect was merely “democratizing” (giving to western corporations) Iraqi oil shares. And one of your pig-dogs already admitted to the war being an imperialist bid for oil and not “democratic”:
“People say we’re not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America’s national interest. What the hell
do you think they’re talking about? We’re not there for figs” - Chuck Hagel, U.S. Senator (1997-2009) and U.S. Secretary of Defense (2013-15)
Say that bs “oh I guess they weren’t ready for democracy” nonsense again I dare you. You don’t deserve to prance around these topics and “learn” by defending horrific atrocities and seeing what responses you get.
You know that there are death camps in North Korea to this day right? Where as South Korea does not have any death camps.
US went out of its way to stop the spread of the communism and destabilize socialist countries in the 20th century. I think these foreign policy decisions were a mistake. Our focus should be on a country’s political structure and not its economic structure.
Afghanistan HAD democracy under the DRA
One party systems are not democracy. edit: spacing
And Iraq, this MUST be the single democratic war fought by the U.S. right?
This is a straw man. I don’t agree with the war in Iraq. Read my comments if you don’t believe me. Iraq gained democracy which is the only silver lining I can think of but their government has since backslid to the detriment of the Iraqi people. Hopefully they will make a course correction.
Say that bs “oh I guess they weren’t ready for democracy” nonsense again I dare you. You don’t deserve to prance around these topics and “learn” by defending horrific atrocities and seeing what responses you get.
Democracy cannot be forced. If people don’t fight to defend it, it will be taken away. edit: grammar
I’ve spent a lot of time learning about these topics because they interest me. But I’m certainly not an expert.
You know that there are death camps in North Korea to this day right? Where as [sic] South Korea does not have any death camps.
Wow! I am shocked and appalled! May I have an article to read on this startling atrocity?
One party systems are not democracy [sic]
Democracy is entirely empty when there is no rule by the majority (i.e. class rule, of which the U.S. is ruled by an economic minority that decides candidacy under the illusory pretext of multiparty competition). The multiparty system by itself is not a guarantee of democracy nor is it the only system of democracy. There can be competing ideas within a party (especially a mass party as the PDPA), and party rule does not negate elections to party positions and mass participation. This is much more a slogan that completely misunderstands different political realities than an actual point. Terrible response to my multitude of points on Afghanistan, although I don’t know if you’re capable of anything else. Under the PDPA, equal rights for women, land reform, and public healthcare were established (Against Empire, p. 57). The king and autocracy were overthrown, labor unions were legalized, women were allowed to read and hold government positions and began literacy programs alongside poor peasants. The U.S. undid all of this by supporting terrorists and committed atrocities in order to ensure their own interests (yay democracy!).
This is a straw man. I don’t agree with the war in Iraq. Read my comments if you don’t believe me.
When you wrote that you “think what [the U.S. government] learned from Afghanistan and Iraq is that democracy cannot be forced.” This, in my view at least, clearly implies that the U.S. government was fighting in Iraq for democracy. Feel free to give me an alternate interpretation.
Democracy cannot be forced. If people don’t fight to defend it, it will be taken away.
This is a fine platitude, but not what I was addressing. I was specifically noting your comments I just mentioned on how these pursuits failed because “democracy cannot be forced”, i.e. the U.S. was “forcing democracy” where people were not ready for it. I categorically reject that U.S. FP is oriented towards democracy (and you’ve done nothing to prove it is), and think it is absolutely disgusting to say that this is what the U.S. needs to “learn from", that the people simply “weren’t ready” for our good will and hospitality in the form of bombs and torture. It’s whitewashing nonsense.
Bush wanted revenge for the assassination plot against his dad by Sadddam and a think tank tried to justify it with bringing democracy to Iraq. The war brought democracy, but it doesn’t seem to be lasting. Democratic institutions have to be actively maintained. Hopefully democracy will last in Iraq. And there were no weapons of mass destruction.
where people were not ready for it.
Everyone is ready for democracy. I believe everyone is capable of choosing to fight for democracy. The fact is people in Afghanistan choose not to fight for their democracy. Their military accepted bribes from the Taliban and the citizens did not rise up in response. I watched the news, it happened very quickly.
We need to learn from our mistakes. We need to do better. Throwing our hands and giving up because of moral issues is not helpful.
Weirdly I can see the actions you’re describing as wrong, but still understand the benefits of American democracy.
Just so we can move on and not talk in circles, is that you tacitly admitting that the US FP is not about “supporting democracy”?
Twenty century US foreign policy was about supporting capitalism, not democracy. I assume you’re referring to the CIA lead coups in the 20th century that upended socialist countries. I would like to think we’ve learned from these mistakes in the 21st century.
As for drone strikes in Yemen in the 21st century, which is what I think you are referring to, killing civilians is obviously wrong. I think not fighting terrorist organizations would also be wrong. It’s in the interest of democracies to fight back against terrorists.
edit: Oh and I am ethnically Jewish, so I do have a lot of opinions about Palestine and Israel. Israel is an apartheid state, but I still believe in a two-state solution.
The coup in Bolivia and the more recent attempts on Venezuela were just a few years ago.
I assume with Libya and Syria you’d just accept the flimsy pretext the US offered like with Yemen despite the barbarous butchering of civilians in all cases. Do you think the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were also for democracy? Are you that far gone?
From what I’ve read about Bolivia quickly sounds like that was a conspiracy theory from the dictator. I haven’t heard of any coup attempt by the CIA in Venezuela recently. At a glance there seems to be Silver Corp that did Operation Gideon. It’s not a state sponsored group. I don’t support the concept of just toppling one dictator in exchange for a US friendly dictator. The incentives a dictator has will inevitably lead them to side with other dictatorships over democracies regardless of who put them in power.
I disagree with drone strikes that killed civilians. However, letting terrorists like ISIS run around in Syria and Iraq and now Africa more recently, is a bad idea when they make it their business to butcher civilians for not being extreme as them.
I’m honestly not super familiar NATO’s intervention of Libya. I’ve read a bit. Sounds like it was bungled quite badly.
I mean Bush wanted to kill Saddam, because of the assassination attempt on his dad, Bush senior, by Saddam. The political reality is that we did bring democracy to those countries. I think what we’ve learned from Afghanistan and Iraq is that democracy cannot be forced. People have to want to live, die, and fight for it. And in the case of Iraq, democratic intuitions have to be maintained, or else the country will backslide to authoritarianism.
@GarbageShoot addressed everything else and debunked it, but I want to talk about this:
This sort of nonsense of dismissing all anti-democratic actions by the U.S. government (ex. below) by saying “I don’t need to defend everything” is absurd and ignorant.
There comes a certain point when the “democracy” thesis must be questioned; in which U.S. military intervention did America “fight for democracy”? You’ve brought up Iraq and Afghanistan. What evidence is there that these were genuine pursuits for democracy? Afghanistan HAD democracy under the DRA, but the U.S. decided to undermine social reform in the country to supplant Soviet influence in the Middle East:
“The United States’ larger interest…would be served by the demise of the Taraki regime, despite whatever setbacks this might mean for future social and economic reform in Afghanistan… The overthrow of the DRA [Democratic Republic of Afghanistan] would show the rest of the world, particularly the Third World, that the Soviet’s view of the socialist course of history as being inevitable is not accurate” (US State Department memorandum reproduced in Cockburn and St. Clair’s Whiteout, pp. 262–63).
We know that the lie of support for the Mujahideen being afforded by the U.S. merely to push back against Soviet invasion is false, since the U.S. admitted to supporting the Mujahideen at least half a year before the invasion (US Foreign Policy and the Soviet-Afghan War, Lowenstien). The volatile conditions in Afghanistan are the exact result of the U.S. fathering the Taliban for influence in the region, and the intervention in Afghanistan had no democratic results apart from furthering U.S. interests (and U.S. corporate oil interests, see Parenti’s “Afghanistan: Another Untold Story”), which were decidedly undemocratic. By the way, the U.S. is still starving people in Afghanistan.
And Iraq, this MUST be the single democratic war fought by the U.S. right? Apart from killing more people than Saddam ever did (and this is of course excluding that the U.S. supported Saddam as he gassed Iran)., giving children birth defects and cancer from depleted Uranium, s-xually abusing and torturing prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and so on, the effect was merely “democratizing” (giving to western corporations) Iraqi oil shares. And one of your pig-dogs already admitted to the war being an imperialist bid for oil and not “democratic”:
“People say we’re not fighting for oil. Of course we are. They talk about America’s national interest. What the hell do you think they’re talking about? We’re not there for figs” - Chuck Hagel, U.S. Senator (1997-2009) and U.S. Secretary of Defense (2013-15)
Say that bs “oh I guess they weren’t ready for democracy” nonsense again I dare you. You don’t deserve to prance around these topics and “learn” by defending horrific atrocities and seeing what responses you get.
You know that there are death camps in North Korea to this day right? Where as South Korea does not have any death camps.
US went out of its way to stop the spread of the communism and destabilize socialist countries in the 20th century. I think these foreign policy decisions were a mistake. Our focus should be on a country’s political structure and not its economic structure.
One party systems are not democracy. edit: spacing
This is a straw man. I don’t agree with the war in Iraq. Read my comments if you don’t believe me. Iraq gained democracy which is the only silver lining I can think of but their government has since backslid to the detriment of the Iraqi people. Hopefully they will make a course correction.
Democracy cannot be forced. If people don’t fight to defend it, it will be taken away. edit: grammar
I’ve spent a lot of time learning about these topics because they interest me. But I’m certainly not an expert.
Your reply barely addresses anything lmao.
Wow! I am shocked and appalled! May I have an article to read on this startling atrocity?
Democracy is entirely empty when there is no rule by the majority (i.e. class rule, of which the U.S. is ruled by an economic minority that decides candidacy under the illusory pretext of multiparty competition). The multiparty system by itself is not a guarantee of democracy nor is it the only system of democracy. There can be competing ideas within a party (especially a mass party as the PDPA), and party rule does not negate elections to party positions and mass participation. This is much more a slogan that completely misunderstands different political realities than an actual point. Terrible response to my multitude of points on Afghanistan, although I don’t know if you’re capable of anything else. Under the PDPA, equal rights for women, land reform, and public healthcare were established (Against Empire, p. 57). The king and autocracy were overthrown, labor unions were legalized, women were allowed to read and hold government positions and began literacy programs alongside poor peasants. The U.S. undid all of this by supporting terrorists and committed atrocities in order to ensure their own interests (yay democracy!).
When you wrote that you “think what [the U.S. government] learned from Afghanistan and Iraq is that democracy cannot be forced.” This, in my view at least, clearly implies that the U.S. government was fighting in Iraq for democracy. Feel free to give me an alternate interpretation.
This is a fine platitude, but not what I was addressing. I was specifically noting your comments I just mentioned on how these pursuits failed because “democracy cannot be forced”, i.e. the U.S. was “forcing democracy” where people were not ready for it. I categorically reject that U.S. FP is oriented towards democracy (and you’ve done nothing to prove it is), and think it is absolutely disgusting to say that this is what the U.S. needs to “learn from", that the people simply “weren’t ready” for our good will and hospitality in the form of bombs and torture. It’s whitewashing nonsense.
The feeling is mutual.
Here you go. I found a bunch on the topic. This was my google search: death camps in north kora
I even spelled it wrong and still found it, lol.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/02/09/un-finds-torture-forced-labor-still-rampant-north-korean-prisons
Bush wanted revenge for the assassination plot against his dad by Sadddam and a think tank tried to justify it with bringing democracy to Iraq. The war brought democracy, but it doesn’t seem to be lasting. Democratic institutions have to be actively maintained. Hopefully democracy will last in Iraq. And there were no weapons of mass destruction.
Everyone is ready for democracy. I believe everyone is capable of choosing to fight for democracy. The fact is people in Afghanistan choose not to fight for their democracy. Their military accepted bribes from the Taliban and the citizens did not rise up in response. I watched the news, it happened very quickly.
We need to learn from our mistakes. We need to do better. Throwing our hands and giving up because of moral issues is not helpful.