I hope this isn’t too spicy a topic for the, what, 7th post on this community? But I see that we already have /c/Zoophilia on the instance and it already has an impressive 80 subscribers. Even as a zoo myself, though, I made the decision to block it as I’m firm in my belief that animals can’t consent. What are everyone’s thoughts on the instance growing other communities about other paraphilias? I know we have a lot of lolicons/shotacons/etc. here, so a community for pedophilia/minor attraction would be really cool and I think fit right in. I’ve always wanted a community for that in a reddit-esque style. (They exist as forums, chat-rooms, and mastodon instances, though!) But if it follows in the footsteps of the zoophilia community and everyone there seems to believe kids can consent, I’d have to block it too. And then I’ll be back at zero when it comes to having a reddit-like community of MAPs! 🥲
What do you think about the prospect of more paraphilia communities? Awesome or scary? Good for the instance or bad for it? I’m also interested in hearing everyone’s opinion on creating alternate paraphilia communities exclusively for anti-contact discussions. (If one like that for zoophilia existed I would happily join!)
I personally would also block anything that pushes a “kids can consent” agenda.
Assuming that isn’t the case, what would be the use case? People supporting each other in not acting on their feelings? I’m not against it outright, I’m just not sure what would be the point.
No doubt a lot (most?) of our communities are focused on support! We’re essentially exiled from the public eye and whether or not you’re at risk of sexually offending against a child, that’s gonna take a toll on you mentally. But even when one of us gets to the point that I’ve gotten to–being roughly at peace with the attractions–the fact remains that we are still essentially banned from public places if we make our true selves known. Communities like this are often the only places many of us have to be our fully authentic selves.
Maybe think of it like this: The world hates us. Mentally the world beats us up every day. Wood chipper this, 9mm pill that, etc etc. Our support groups are like hospitals where we can heal from those mental wounds. There we learn that we’re not the ticking time bombs we’re told we are, and that we are worthy and love and acceptance. But a hospital can be a dreary place. Sterile white walls and the constant sight of the wounded permeate. We are eager to be discharged from the hospital, but not onto the streets that gave us these wounds in the first place. We need a place to just… be where we won’t get hurt again.
Seems reasonable, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I’m not sure how much activity such a community would have but I wouldn’t be against its existence. Moderation would have to be tight.
My main worry is distinguishing between paraphiles that want help and predators. Places like rot.gives basically have become a haven for those that openly want to rape children. Errante just plays to dumb to it by saying I’m fine with loli, like that’s equal to posting about wanting to rape real children. The average person struggles to distinguish crossdressing and transgenderism, unfortunately i don’t think the average person can distinguish paraphiles from predators. Personally i think we should kill predators, but allow paraphiles to live normal lives. Otherwise were going to move more paraphiles to rape, and nothing is solved. The thing is both ends need to keep strong line between offenders and non, unless we end up killing innocents or we allow continued rape.
Personally I think the state killing people is bad actually. The chances of a person escaping from a life-long prison sentence are practically zero. If the purpose of killing people is to prevent the harm they may have caused in the future, then life sentences have essentially the exact same effectiveness. You can partially undo a life-sentence as has been done many many times. You cannot undo a death sentence. If you are at all concerned with the possibility of killing innocent people then the death penalty should not be on your radar as a serious option.
Im more taking morally not legally. I was molested and know who my molester is, i whould be in my moral right to kill him (atleast personally). The government is too poorly run in general to the point i don’t expect anything from them.
For the love of fuck, I would be strongly against this. Seen this done in several loli communities in the past and it has seem to break down moderation in one way or another. I like what Burggit has going here. It’s a pretty relaxed community. Having a MAP community would probably make it pretty stressful.
The only loli community I’ve seen take that route is ATF and they seem to be quite doing well for themselves after fostering their MAP community.
I…have my many reserves about ATF. MAPs is one of the reasons why I left. If I’m mistaken they got rid of it in their chat. Not that it makes me want to go back anyway.
Major glowie vibes right here
Yeah, I’d have to peace out if this were on burggit. I have fetishes for both rape and underage stuff, but they’re very much fantasy-only. It’s important for me to draw a hard line on that and not associate myself with those that want to do the real thing, even if they’re restraining themselves. I’m averse to zoo stuff on the other hand, so I’m less concerned about maintaining such a separation.
We’re not “restraining ourselves” we’re just not pieces of shit who wanna rape kids. If you can’t conceive of being attracted to something in the real world that cannot consent without wanting to rape it, that says more about you than it does us :/
🙄
Ad hominem aside, I think they have a fair point.
It’s important for me to draw a hard line on that and not associate myself with those that want to do the real thing
You can just block the community, and if you’d like, every user on it. I also feel like you’re abusing the word “want” here.
Blocking is irrelevant. I don’t ever assume that I’m totally anonymous. If people find out that I’m hanging out on “the loli hentai instance”, that’s fine. No one that I care about is going to be particularly surprised.
On the other hand, if burggit turns into “the pedo instance”, I am not okay with being seen here.
Okay, your concern is being lumped together with MAPs, not actually associating with them, then?
Mainly, yes
We might be open to allowing this sort of community in the future, but currently the restrictions we would have to place on a MAP community would probably make it one which would be more of a hassle than anything. Both for the users/mods of said community and for the admins of Burggit in general.
There are other sites made specifically for this sort of discussion which have the tools and moderation to handle it far better than we do. We might open this up a bit in the future and leave it up to user vote, but for now, this is going to be something I would heavily discourage.
I guess I understand. It feels so double-standard-y though. Can I ask what your considerations were/are in allowing the zoophilia community to be on burggit? I’ve been looking for a MAP community in a reddit style for a long time and coming across this instance made me real hopeful. Seeing a community for zoophilia, which is considered in the paraphile communities I’m in to be part of the “big three” (pedophilia/minor attraction, zoophilia, necrophilia) really added to that hope. Why one but not the other? Since you allow pro-contact zoos a community, surely anti-contact pedos can’t be any worse. 😕
@Mousepad@burggit.moe @amaranta@burggit.moe Tagging both of you since you both wanted to know the answer to this.
To be totally blunt, Our server’s datacenter has no issues hosting Zoophillia content. They even joke about a website they have which is hosting bestiality. If the Zoophillia community accidentally or “accidentally” posted real Zoo porn and I got reported to my hosting company, they’d probably laugh it off, and I’d just remove it. There’d be no risk to me, Burggit or any of my or burger and I’s services. Bestiality is also not illegal in a large section of the world, and people generally don’t care as much.
Alright, now let’s take this to a MAP community, even ignoring the fact that a lot of our users have made it very clear they are not in favor of having such a community. And me obviously wanting to please the community that is already here, rather than a small minority of people. There are other issues with it. First off, like others have said, this would get us isolated to kingdom come. On mastodon/pleroma/akkoma this doesn’t matter, you can get defederated by literally 500 instances and still be fine, on lemmy that’d be crippling for the federated instances we have remaining.
Alright, now to the hosting side of things. If a MAP in a MAP community were to accidentally or “accidentally” post real CP, it would just put us in a situation which we’d have to respond immediately. This is already a risk, but having a map community, as much as you might say otherwise does increase its likelihood significantly.
Like I said, if we had a larger moderation team which could monitor things on here 24/7 we might have a vote for it. But it seems that even then, it is a no, since our already established community who has made this site the wonderful place it is. They don’t seem to want this type of community, and we are far more inclined to go with their wishes over the wishes of other groups/individuals.
I can understand the defederation thing but given how much y’all seem to like saying that any viewpoint is welcome here it seems siding with the userbase to disallow a community is pretty hypocritical, no? But I appreciate your transparency. And I personally wouldn’t have the self-control to work with people who could laugh at animal rape but you gotta host somewhere I guess.
Not siding with anyone, to be clear, we never had a vote. Right now, the decision is entirely based around the huge moderation task we’d be undertaking. I was saying that in the future if ever we could handle this type of community moderation wise we might open up discussion about it and potentially have a vote. But currently, as things stand, I would heavily discourage the creation of this sort of community.
Though, to be clear, I think it’s obvious that if a situation did come up where we had a vote, we’d obviously side with the community who are currently contributing and making this place what it is.
Someone tried running a similar community on lemmynsfw. Unsurprisingly, it didn’t go well and was a bellwether of what would eventually happen to that instance.
Note @Disabled’s post isn’t outright banning that sort of community, only advising against it because of moderation concerns.
This is a pretty good point, actually. Does !zoophilia@burggit.moe have many content restrictions?
From an administration POV, I imagine one being much less controversial is impactful. We are probably already being closely watched by certain groups for any violation as far pedophilia content would go.
No actual porn is allowed to be posted there, per the community creator’s rules. Also disa alluded to zoo porn might be illegal in the Netherlands (where this is hosted) and I’m not 100% sure about netherlands law but I ain’t pushing it.
IMHO.
Fictional stuff = anything goes. Real life stuff = needs actual control on its content.
Using the lolicon, furry and gore examples, they are perfectly valid so long they stay in the realm of fictional stuff be animation or drawings. There is no real harm done and there is a very strong barrier between the aesthetics of the fiction and the real stuff.
Now, if real people and animals are involved, it is a big NO. Real lives are corrupted, endangered or harmed to produce that stuff and is unethical and amoral.
As for if it is anti-contact … I guess that would depend a lot about having mods checking their content constantly and if the option exist, maybe make them exclusively text-only. I know that some people don’t act on their desires and just need a place to vent off.
I would have to ban any community focused on that type of content as it’s far too likely that they’d break my instances rules
rule 4: (do not advocate that you should be allowed to rape children)
It always seems so unfair when we’re banned under pretenses like that that regardless of contact stance… like despite the fact that we’re just normal people with an attraction we can’t control we’re treated as more likely to be a threat and less able to control ourselves yk?
If a place is gonna ban us all I’d rather they be upfront about just not wanting us around instead of hiding behind the idea that it’d just be too hard to moderate! Like how twitter and reddit do it.
It is absolutely unfair, but it costs way more moderation energy than many feel the subject is worth given the number of bad actors such groups tend to collect.
I mean that unfairness is baked into the nature of a platform where someone else ultimately bears responsibility for failures in moderation. These sites aren’t run by perfect robots that work 24/7, they’re run by people. I the case of lemmy, almost entirely people doing this as a personal project. And there’s a limit to how much work they want to put into it, especially when it comes to being an internet jannie.
Regardless of moral stances, I’m pretty sure this would isolate burggit to kingdom come. Loli/shota is already dicey as is for many, but there’s barely anybody who would be okay with MAP communities. Not to mention the legal risks and the moderation overhead you would need for this.
Thinking about the health of burggit I would not want this line to be crossed.
I think that there are other spaces for it (atf gray zone), and if there are not, make your own Lemmy instance for it.
I think talking about doing illegal acts, talking about having done illegal acts, talking about wanting to do illegal acts, or asking around about how to do illegal acts is squicky.
For animals, I could imagine that they are not quite aware what’s happening, and could be argued it not harmful if not forced. But children remember. They grow up and it effects their entire lives.
We just are not big enough yet for a group like that (no matter how small) to not define us in the eyes of everyone else. We already have enough problems trying to not be loli and nothing else.
There are Mastodon instances? I never dug into them, how would I start?
You could start with nnia.space. But in general the pediverse is a small place. You’ll run into pro-cs a lot more than you’d probably like so it’s not for everyone. It’s barely even for me.
I came across Pawoo through here (you can actually see exactly when in my comment history). They appear to have a set of tags often used by those groups. I imagine if you explore who’s posting with those tags you may discover accounts on other instances who are more friendly to that kind of stuff.