Which arguably makes the AR-15 one of the most protected guns, if we’re using the wording of the second amendment as the only justification for firearms rights.
You can do a lot of damage with medium caliber rifles running internal clips. Such a limit would be more than enough for a militia unless everyone is practicing their tactical magazine changes and fireteam movement drills.
What? No it wouldn’t? They hand grunts 30 round magazines for a reason. They used to give them 20 round magazines for the same rifle. Minimizing administrative tasks is good for your soldier.
Soldiers are also trained in several different firing modalities that depend on teamwork. Those 30 rounds aren’t there just because “it’s easier”. I would sooner hand a militiaman a bolt action than a 30 round semi/burst capable weapon. They’d be less likely to blow through significant portions of their ammo load just because the wind made a tree creak. And before you say no, remember the cop that unloaded on his own car because of an acorn. We don’t arm units for their best person, we give them the gun that’s good enough for the lowest common denominator. The 2nd amendment doesn’t make everyone a line Infantryman.
The US military would one million percent prefer the population be trained and familiar on the standard issue rifle than on any other platform. (Arguments of the quality training put aside)
Nobody actually uses burst fire. Does the Spear have burst fire? I haven’t looked too closely because I seriously doubt they’re ever actually going to make it the standard issue rifle.
It says the states, specifically, must have armed citizens to prevent a tyrannical federal government:
. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, RESERVING TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY THE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS, AND THE AUTHORITY OF TRAINING THE MILITIA ACCORDING TO THE DISCIPLINE PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS.‘’
By keeping the army, or ‘militia’ under the sole control of the states, it guaranteed the states were never disarmed and could effectively resist or even attempt secession if they saw fit. Which, in fact, was later tried.
Until the 14th amendment incorporated the bill of rights, the 2nd amendment only applied to the federal government, and in fact strict gun laws and bans were common throughout the 18th century.
I’m not going to debate an amateur (as an amateur to be fair) about something that already has a ruling. In 2008, DC v. Heller ruled that the ownership of firearms included the purpose of self defense independent of anything to do with a militia. Link
That said, the federalist paper you linked made a great case for a militia but did not talk about the People’s right to bear arms. It was also written 4 whole years before the 2nd amendment was ratified so using as an interpretation tool is not adequate. Similarly, it would make sense to me that if firearm bans were common throughout the 1700s, that in 1792 they would pass an amendment to counter that if they didn’t like it…
I don’t have in-depth knowledge about the 14th amendment and I don’t have time to look right now so I’ll ask… what/how does the 14th amendment have/do that implies an amendment which specifically states “The People” (a protected term, such as in "We The People), did not apply to The People? Federal or not, the meaning is the same. Unless I’m missing something.
And also the founders. Some of them loved the idea of a militia instead of a standing army. There was even an attempt at a militia navy. Which is insane. “Got my musket and rowboat. Off to defend the homeland!” rows towards French 90-gun ship.
The whole idea behind a militia was barely practical back then, and isn’t at all with industrialized warfare. If that’s the argument for the 2nd A, then it might as well be tossed on the same pile as the 3rd A of “anachronistic stuff that made sense to somebody at the time”.
Some of the founders. And they were referring to town and state militias, not one big unorganized one. The idea that “the people” comprise “the militia” in a one to one manner tracks to a World War 2 era Supreme Court decision.
Go back to Article I, Section 8, and perform that same substitution. Replacing “Militia” with “People” does not change the meaning of Article I in the slightest.
The term “militia” was used in the second amendment specifically to reference the militia clauses in Article I. If Article I had referred to “Yeomanry” or “Snorglubben”, the Second Amendment would have used those terms instead.
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia People, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia People according to the discipline prescribed by Congress
Can’t say I agree with your conclusion there, that’s a pretty significant change of meaning. The Militia is explicitly described as something that is organized, armed, disciplined, and trained by Officers.
Does Congress not have the authority to organize you, arm you, govern you, employ you? Do the states not have the authority to appoint officers over you, or train you according to the discipline prescribed by Congress?
Can you not be called forth to enforce law, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion?
You certainly can make some distinctions between “person” and “militiaman”. A 4-year-old child is a person and not a militiaman. The courts would certainly rule against the idea that Congress can organize a Children’s Brigade under the militia clauses. They would rule on constitutional grounds against paraplegics, or the mentally disabled being drafted. But we aren’t talking about these exceptional cases. We are talking about the general case, and the general case is that it is your status as a person that makes you a member of the militia.
Indeed, I think that Congress should establish a requirement that every American be trained on safe handling procedures, as well as on the laws governing the use of force in self defense and defense of others. They have that authority under the Militia clauses; I think they should exercise it.
Squares and rectangles, you can’t generalize a subset as synonymous with its superset.
Congress should establish a requirement that every American be trained on safe handling procedures, as well as on the laws governing the use of force in self defense and defense of others.
You won’t hear any argument from me on this point, I do believe the states should organize and train adults with some degree of competency, although this was written when Militias were the primary national defense in lieu of the standing Army we now maintain.
But the rest of your interpretation reads more like you’re working backwards from the conclusion you want to prove.
Do the states not have the authority to appoint officers over you, or train you according to the discipline prescribed by Congress?
Can you not be called forth to enforce law, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion?
Broadly speaking, no I would not say that’s the case .
The founders did not make a habit of codifying lazy verbage, if they meant People in general they would have written People in general. They chose the words they did to convey specific and distinct meanings. Militia refers particularly to that portion of a community trained for “martial exercise”. If you’re not trained, I’d argue specifically trained by the state, you’re not part of the Militia. A candidate for it perhaps, but not a member until you’ve been trained by the state for the purpose.
You won’t hear any argument from me on this point, I do believe the states should organize and train adults with some degree of competency
As you used it in that statement, the term “adults” is synonymous with “well regulated militia” as used in the constitution, and “people” as I have used the term.
It is because we are militia/people/adults that we can be compelled to attend the training you describe, or be otherwise drafted into service.
Squares and rectangles, you can’t generalize a subset as synonymous with its superset.
This is true, there is not a complete overlap, but I accounted for the non-squares in my last comment. My point is not that militia contains absolutely all members of “we the people”. My point is made when “equilateral rectangles” are the general rule, and “non square” is an exceptional case.
When you see a random person on the street and have no special information about them, It is unreasonable to presume they are not a member of the militia.
No I heard what you said, I don’t agree with that interpretation. No training, no Militia. A raw egg isn’t an omelet . Again, you started with your conclusion and are interpreting the words to justify it.
Its a good thing the second amendment doesn’t just include a clause for hunting! People often forget it says
“A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
Indeed it doesn’t protect hunting or self defence at all. Only the collective defense.
Which arguably makes the AR-15 one of the most protected guns, if we’re using the wording of the second amendment as the only justification for firearms rights.
You can do a lot of damage with medium caliber rifles running internal clips. Such a limit would be more than enough for a militia unless everyone is practicing their tactical magazine changes and fireteam movement drills.
What? No it wouldn’t? They hand grunts 30 round magazines for a reason. They used to give them 20 round magazines for the same rifle. Minimizing administrative tasks is good for your soldier.
Soldiers are also trained in several different firing modalities that depend on teamwork. Those 30 rounds aren’t there just because “it’s easier”. I would sooner hand a militiaman a bolt action than a 30 round semi/burst capable weapon. They’d be less likely to blow through significant portions of their ammo load just because the wind made a tree creak. And before you say no, remember the cop that unloaded on his own car because of an acorn. We don’t arm units for their best person, we give them the gun that’s good enough for the lowest common denominator. The 2nd amendment doesn’t make everyone a line Infantryman.
The US military would one million percent prefer the population be trained and familiar on the standard issue rifle than on any other platform. (Arguments of the quality training put aside)
Then we better start giving everyone burst fire weapons.
No?
The military is just fine with its irregulars using something else. We worked alongside locals running AK platforms for 20 years.
Nobody actually uses burst fire. Does the Spear have burst fire? I haven’t looked too closely because I seriously doubt they’re ever actually going to make it the standard issue rifle.
Intent isn’t started. It says the state gets guns (a militia) so the people get guns too.
Not saying you need to agree with the sentiment, but grammatically that is what it says.
That’s absolutely the opposite of what it says.
It says the states, specifically, must have armed citizens to prevent a tyrannical federal government:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp
By keeping the army, or ‘militia’ under the sole control of the states, it guaranteed the states were never disarmed and could effectively resist or even attempt secession if they saw fit. Which, in fact, was later tried.
Until the 14th amendment incorporated the bill of rights, the 2nd amendment only applied to the federal government, and in fact strict gun laws and bans were common throughout the 18th century.
I’m not going to debate an amateur (as an amateur to be fair) about something that already has a ruling. In 2008, DC v. Heller ruled that the ownership of firearms included the purpose of self defense independent of anything to do with a militia. Link
That said, the federalist paper you linked made a great case for a militia but did not talk about the People’s right to bear arms. It was also written 4 whole years before the 2nd amendment was ratified so using as an interpretation tool is not adequate. Similarly, it would make sense to me that if firearm bans were common throughout the 1700s, that in 1792 they would pass an amendment to counter that if they didn’t like it…
I don’t have in-depth knowledge about the 14th amendment and I don’t have time to look right now so I’ll ask… what/how does the 14th amendment have/do that implies an amendment which specifically states “The People” (a protected term, such as in "We The People), did not apply to The People? Federal or not, the meaning is the same. Unless I’m missing something.
Too many people don’t understand that “militia” and “people” are synonymous as used in 2A.
According to the court 175 years later.
And also the founders. Some of them loved the idea of a militia instead of a standing army. There was even an attempt at a militia navy. Which is insane. “Got my musket and rowboat. Off to defend the homeland!” rows towards French 90-gun ship.
The whole idea behind a militia was barely practical back then, and isn’t at all with industrialized warfare. If that’s the argument for the 2nd A, then it might as well be tossed on the same pile as the 3rd A of “anachronistic stuff that made sense to somebody at the time”.
Some of the founders. And they were referring to town and state militias, not one big unorganized one. The idea that “the people” comprise “the militia” in a one to one manner tracks to a World War 2 era Supreme Court decision.
Then why does the amendment refer to a Well Regulated Militia? If “People” were synonymous, the amendment doesn’t make sense. “Well regulated people”?
Go back to Article I, Section 8, and perform that same substitution. Replacing “Militia” with “People” does not change the meaning of Article I in the slightest.
The term “militia” was used in the second amendment specifically to reference the militia clauses in Article I. If Article I had referred to “Yeomanry” or “Snorglubben”, the Second Amendment would have used those terms instead.
Can’t say I agree with your conclusion there, that’s a pretty significant change of meaning. The Militia is explicitly described as something that is organized, armed, disciplined, and trained by Officers.
Are you not a person?
Does Congress not have the authority to organize you, arm you, govern you, employ you? Do the states not have the authority to appoint officers over you, or train you according to the discipline prescribed by Congress?
Can you not be called forth to enforce law, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion?
You certainly can make some distinctions between “person” and “militiaman”. A 4-year-old child is a person and not a militiaman. The courts would certainly rule against the idea that Congress can organize a Children’s Brigade under the militia clauses. They would rule on constitutional grounds against paraplegics, or the mentally disabled being drafted. But we aren’t talking about these exceptional cases. We are talking about the general case, and the general case is that it is your status as a person that makes you a member of the militia.
Indeed, I think that Congress should establish a requirement that every American be trained on safe handling procedures, as well as on the laws governing the use of force in self defense and defense of others. They have that authority under the Militia clauses; I think they should exercise it.
Squares and rectangles, you can’t generalize a subset as synonymous with its superset.
You won’t hear any argument from me on this point, I do believe the states should organize and train adults with some degree of competency, although this was written when Militias were the primary national defense in lieu of the standing Army we now maintain.
But the rest of your interpretation reads more like you’re working backwards from the conclusion you want to prove.
Broadly speaking, no I would not say that’s the case .
The founders did not make a habit of codifying lazy verbage, if they meant People in general they would have written People in general. They chose the words they did to convey specific and distinct meanings. Militia refers particularly to that portion of a community trained for “martial exercise”. If you’re not trained, I’d argue specifically trained by the state, you’re not part of the Militia. A candidate for it perhaps, but not a member until you’ve been trained by the state for the purpose.
As you used it in that statement, the term “adults” is synonymous with “well regulated militia” as used in the constitution, and “people” as I have used the term.
It is because we are militia/people/adults that we can be compelled to attend the training you describe, or be otherwise drafted into service.
This is true, there is not a complete overlap, but I accounted for the non-squares in my last comment. My point is not that militia contains absolutely all members of “we the people”. My point is made when “equilateral rectangles” are the general rule, and “non square” is an exceptional case.
When you see a random person on the street and have no special information about them, It is unreasonable to presume they are not a member of the militia.
No I heard what you said, I don’t agree with that interpretation. No training, no Militia. A raw egg isn’t an omelet . Again, you started with your conclusion and are interpreting the words to justify it.