Yeah - while Temple was my first exposure, but Ice Station is the best place to start, and up there with his best work. Later stuff goes from silly fun to just… lost.
Let me introduce you to…
The Metaverse!
you don’t have a crystal ball.
Now we’re getting somewhere! Why do you shoot the school shooter - you don’t have a crystal ball - they could drop the gun and surrender at any moment. How about Hitler?
You using (Stalin) as an example of Western fascism.
Cool - distinction without a difference - I’m glad we wasted our time on that when your dictionary agrees with me.
That’s a moral decision, not a legal one.
Great - let’s stop talking about legal stuff then.
You think civilians murdering other civilians is not just a right but a moral obligation, I don’t.
So you don’t agree with killing the school shooter? What if they have their gun pointed at you? Exception after exception.
it’s not murder, it’s combat
What’s the moral difference other than scale? State approval?
The difference between you and I is that I understand moral ambiguity and how to navigate it - you pretend things are absolute, set rigid rules then fall apart the moment you encounter anything that doesn’t neatly fit with your framework.
I would not support telling random people to (…) open fire on civilians
…aaaaand we’re back off what I’ve been saying - but this gets a lot more straightforward once we address the crystal ball piece.
Man, I’m done. You’re strawmanning hard now. At what point did I say fascism is good?
The point is that you’re getting bogged down in semantic nonsense for no reason whatsoever - your nitpicking changes nothing, and if it does, it necessarily means you’re supporting fascism.
You support killing if YOU’RE sure it will prevent suffering. So if you have the opinion that killing Fuentes will prevent suffering, then you’ll go ahead and kill him because as established, you only care about morality not law.
Fuck it - I’ll do this differently, park the nuance for the minute and say sure - what’s your disagreement? If we know someone’s willful efforts and continued existence will lead to mass death and suffering, and their death is the only way to stop that, why would their death be bad?
Fascism
What part of your definition excludes Stalin’s regime?
You’re looking at the fact that both are dictatorships and ignoring that fascism is hard right authoritarianism and communism is hard left authoritarianism.
I’m looking at the definition you provided. It’s irrelevant - let’s assume Stalin’s regime wasn’t fascist. What changes?
Because I think civilians deserve, at minimum, a trial before they are murdered that means I support the Holocaust. It’s a huge overreach and a ridiculous take.
No Nazi court would sentence Hitler, no Nazi court would sentence the SS, no Nazi court would sentence German civilians shooting Jews in the face in broad daylight. You either support this position - i.e. fascism and the Holocaust were legal and fine or your pushback is based in something other than legality. The argument you’re putting forward would excuse all the above. The school shooter, Hitler, the Nazi recruiter, and the German murderer don’t get a trial because the courts are unwilling or incapable of stopping the problem - that doesn’t make the problem disappear or remove your responsibility to do something about that problem.
Dude, I stopped talking about legality (…) Since then it’s been all about morality
I think civilians deserve, at minimum, a trial before they are murdered
Pick one.
You’re back?
Way to dodge the question about if you think killing social media people (not even Trump, just podcasters) is going to prevent WW3.
I can’t make this any simpler - I support it if it does.
Stalinism
Get a dictionary. Look up fascism and communism. Look up Umberto Eco’s 14 signs. You’re lost - do you think fascism is good because Stalin wasn’t fascist?
Nothing I’ve said is an excuse for the Holocaust and I’ve not once apologized for Nazis.
I’ve pointed out why your arguments do precisely this - tell me what I’ve mischaracterised.
killing people (…) is justified if you’re sure it will prevent suffering (at the scale we’re talking about)
Yep - and you’re saying it’s bad because it’s illegal - a standard that excuses Hitler’s actions after the beer hall putsch.
Stalin’s regime wasn’t communist, and it checked all the boxes for fascism. Go look up the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact - they only got antagonistic because their expansionism started treading on each-others toes. The ignorance.
I’m well aware of Mussolini’s kill count - go ahead and scale things to the population and average it all out… Or skip that, and explain me the difference this makes to the point.
As for Hitler, the numbers you are talking about aren’t his takeover of Germany - they’re WW2.
…which kicked off because…? Moron.
You are are saying, over and over, that killing people to stop suffering is right. You are absolutely talking about killing people who are SAYING things you don’t like. Fuentes is not an active shooter - I can’t even find a criminal record for him of any kind.
Why would this argument not absolve Hitler or Goebbels of all fault for the Holocaust? It doesn’t matter - we’ve already established that you can’t have a moral issue with their actions because they were legal.
Your arguments amount to straightforward Nazi apologia as you ether lie or paint what I’m saying as my playing judge, jury and executioner. I’m not dishing out death sentences to Fuentes - I’m saying that his death would be good if it prevents more death and suffering. At this point, I think that’s likely, but I don’t think I can know yet. Go spend 5 minutes familiarising yourself with consequentialism or act utilitarianism.
I spit on the feigned outrage and moralism of someone whose prescriptions excuse the fucking Holocaust, and condemn intervention against it because it was legal - absolutely monstrous and utterly moronic.
What confident ignorance that would be overcome with any research whatsoever. This is clear enough that I don’t need to bother with an explanation - Here’s 3 search terms for you:
Company town
Pullman
Monopoly
You seem to think “killing mouthpieces” is going to be some magical event that makes hateful people reconsider (as opposed to spurring them to violence of their own).
Without recruiters and leaders, a movement is smaller, less coordinated, and less radicalised. This is doubly true of authoritatian movements built on lies.
Also, I’d like to add it’s ridiculous hyperbole - 3.8 million people are estimated to have died in the 20 years of the Vietnam war. Just over 900k died to violence in all the post 9-11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
When talking about the threat of Western fascism, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to look at western fascists? Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin… It’s strange you’d point to such unrelated conflicts. Tens of millions dead.
You go ahead and be “guided by morality not legality” while you do try to convince others extrajudicial violence is alright.
If killing a mouthpiece of a genocidal movement prevents the deaths of tens of millions of people, it’s morally correct. Similarly, gay marriage wasn’t immoral until it was legal.
All because you believe killing people outside the law, and getting people killed in return, is productive if you’re sure it’s right.
Its right if it’s productive. It’s not productive because I’m sure it’s right. You’re tying yourself in knots here - it’s very straightforward - minimise suffering and death.
You use the example of cops carrying guns, but they’re not under license to kill everyone they disagree with nor is it considered moral (since you don’t care about legality).
Cops carry guns because some violence is necessary, and desirable to stop more violence. You kill the school shooter to stop the kids getting murdered, you kill the Nazi leader to stop the minorities getting murdered. Attempting to spin this into a defence of killing anyone you disagree with demonstrates either willful dishonesty or a level of stupidity that would disqualify you from this conversation. Stop.
Violence should be a last resort
I’ve said as much.
used only within bounds that keep if from being a crime/war crime
Some killing is immoral and legal - e.g. the use of the death penalty, other killing is moral and illegal - e.g. killing Hitler to end World War II and the Holocaust. Why would you defer to legality in the context of fascists running the government, and being able to set the laws? Why was slavery immoral when it was legal? If your moral framework is based in legality (I don’t think it is, I don’t think you realise that), you’re definitionally amoral - a fundamentally broken human being.
not exercised by everyone at will if they’re pretty sure it’s productive.
Are you going to wait for the fascist government to try the fascist leader, remove them from power, disassemble the means to commit their series of genocides, pack up and go home? This is a material defence of fascism.
You’ve said a lot while adding nothing.
Again, the priority is minimising suffering and death - if Fuentes’ death amounts to a net increase in death and suffering, I don’t support it. If there is a solution to that leads to less net suffering and death, I don’t support his death. If it’s effective at stopping the deaths of tens of millions of people, I’d support it. My preferred solution would be to escalate charges, censure and imprisonment for his work to advance those genocides.
What I will say is that:
Silencing the mouthpieces of genocide and the recruiters for genocide helps minimises the chances of the genocides,
Making contributing to genocide a dangerous affair helps minimise the chances of genocides.
Asking nicely doesn’t do a damn thing to minimise the chances of the genocides.
Political violence is an inevitability - I’d rather it be minimised - sometimes a little violence stops a lot - this is why cops carry guns.
Finally, what you are pushing for is very illegal.
I’ve already said I’m guided by morality not legality, and I’m not pushing for anything specific beyond stopping about the most heinous act possible. I appreciate your concern, but the rest is noise.
No… Stop… Please? Niiiick? I said pleeeease…
I use morality rather than legality to tell right from wrong. This is why I supported gay marriage a few years ago. My moral first principle is the minimisation of suffering and death. If someone is making headway toward killing tens of millions of people, I believe it’s immoral not to stop them, and while the suffering inflicted should be minimised, there’s not a lot that wouldn’t be justifiable if necessary to stop those tens of millions of deaths and all the suffering.
To stand by and watch something like that play out because forceful intervention is uncivil is to be complicit with those atrocities.
Sure - he might be actively pushing for a series of genocides, and he might be a significant recruitment tool to advance those genocides, but pushing back against the death of millions of people with anything more than colourful language would be immoral.
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
When very charitably, at least 12 of Eco’s 14 signs of Ur fascism has been checked off along with the dictionary definition, this is a pretty weak argument - Where do you get your meaning of words if it’s not based on the dictionary or on something’s traits?
Deregulation and the outsourcing of state power to complicit, newly empowered commercial interests is standard within fascism, and pushing that power from notionally democratic direct government control to undemocratic businesses that have an interest in preserving the government that removed their guardrails and handed them all that power is undeniably authoritarian. Would you make the argument that company towns aren’t authoritarian or centralised because it’s not government power?
Excessive debt is indeed a driver of authoritatian policy for better or worse, but fascism isn’t the only flavour of authoritarianism. Similarly, company towns tend to thrive in small government environments, and are historically incredibly authoritarian. That’s not a good thing.
Oh - my mistake - you think you’re not supporting fascism… It’d be quaint if it weren’t for the consequences.
Fascism is characterised by the merging of state and commercial interests, not a strong centralised authority in a beuracratic sense. Let’s run the list, shall we?
“The cult of tradition”, characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
Check.
“The rejection of modernism”, which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
Check.
“The cult of action for action’s sake”, which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
Check.
“Disagreement is treason” – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
Big check.
“Fear of difference”, which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
That couldn’t be Trum- CHECK.
“Appeal to a frustrated middle class”, fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
Check.
“Obsession with a plot” and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson’s book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
Check.
Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as “at the same time too strong and too weak”. On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
Check.
“Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy” because “life is permanent warfare” – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
Ukraine/Palestine - soft check.
“Contempt for the weak”, which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
Check.
“Everybody is educated to become a hero”, which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, “[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.”
Soft check, but that’s clearly firming up.
“Machismo”, which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold “both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality”.
Check.
“Selective populism” – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of “no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people”.
Check.
“Newspeak” – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
Check.
I’ve got bad news for you…
Your defence of your fascist alignment is to concede it’s always ended terribly, then point to an anarcho-capitalist example where the goal is to collapse the government because Milei hasn’t finished the job after checks watch less than a year?
I get that he’s done a fairly commendable job with the economic tailspin so-far, but I’m not sure I see the relevance.
As an example, the IRS returns $6 for every dollar spent on it, and absolutely all available evidence shows that if you remove all the guardrails, things get far worse almost immediately.
Can you point to an example of fascism working? Every example I’ve seen ended with massive decline in quality of life, rampant waste, and both economic and government collapse - usually with a dead leader through suicide or execution, generally with their corpse being dragged through the streets by an understandably furious populace. It’ll all work out this time, though… right?
Fascism and idiots - I couldn’t name a more iconic duo - though I do agree with you point… Trump is exceptionally stupid, and has surrounded himself with gibbering idiots like Musk and RFK.
…that said, when Trump’s heart inevitably explodes, Vance will almost certainly have competent (evil) advisors, and they’ll get (horrible) shit done.
The Hitler lasted from July 1932, and Hitler killed himself in April 1945 - 13 years.
Mussolini lasted from 1922 to his execution in 1945 - 23 years.
Stalin lasted 1924-1953 - 29 years.
Fascism inevitably implodes and crates untold suffering along the way, but you might have longer than you think.
Yeah - it’s the FDA and CDC that are the true money pits in the US government… Let’s eliminate the IRS and EPA while we’re at it - really smash those guardrails and let the altruistic market fix it - that always works…
Ohhh look - we’re cutting taxes for those that need it least again - but that’s responsible spending - it’s all been accumulating for over half a century, so it’s got to start trickling down any day now, guys.
If you can avoid the dark ages, you should probably consider that a win right now…
Policy is not to arm countries blocking humanitarian aid - this is just sparkling aiding genocide.