There has been significant discussion in recent weeks regarding Meta/Threads. We would like to express our disappointment with the negative and threatening tone of some of these discussions. We kindly ask everyone to engage in civil discourse and remember that not everyone will share the same opinions, which is perfectly acceptable.
When considering whether or not to defederate from Threads, we’re looking for a decision based on facts that prioritize your safety. We strive to remain neutral to make an informed choice.
First, there seem to be some misconceptions about how the Fediverse operates based on several posts. We’ve compiled some resource links to help explain the details and address any misunderstandings.
Fed Tips , Fediverse , ActivityPub
Initial Thoughts:
It seems unlikely that Meta will federate with Lemmy. When/if Meta adopts ActivityPub, it will likely affect Mastodon only rather than Lemmy, given Meta’s focus on being a Twitter alternative at the moment.
Please note that we have a few months before Threads will even federate with Mastodon, so we have some time to make the right decision.
Factors to Consider:
Factors to consider if Meta federates with Lemmy:
Privacy - While it’s true that Meta’s privacy settings for the app are excessive, it’s important to note that these settings only apply to users of the official Threads app and do not impact Lemmy users. It’s worth mentioning that Lemmy does not collect any personal data, and Meta has no means of accessing such data from this platform. In addition, when it comes to scraping data from your post/comments, Meta doesn’t need ActivityPub to do that. Anyone can read your profile and public posts as it is today.
Moderation - If a server hosts a substantial amount of harmful content without performing efficient and comprehensive moderation, it will create an excessive workload for our moderators. Currently, Meta is utilizing its existing Instagram moderation tools. Considering there were 95 million posts on the first day, this becomes worrisome, as it could potentially overwhelm us and serve as a sufficient reason for defederation.
Ads - It’s possible if Meta presents them as posts.
Promoting Posts - It’s possible with millions of users upvoting a post for it to trend.
Embrace, extend, and extinguish (EEE) - We don’t think they can. If anyone can explain how they technically would, please let us know. Even if Meta forks Lemmy and gets rid of the original software, Lemmy will survive.
Instance Blocking - Unlike Mastodon, Lemmy does not provide a feature for individual users to block an instance (yet). This creates a dilemma where we must either defederate, disappointing those who desire interaction with Threads, or choose not to defederate, which will let down those who prefer no interaction with Threads.
Blocking Outgoing Federation - There is currently no tool available to block outgoing federation from lemmy.world to other instances. We can only block incoming federation. This means that if we choose to defederate with our current capabilities, Threads will still receive copies of lemmy.world posts. However, only users on Threads will be able to interact with them, while we would not be able to see their interactions. This situation is similar to the one with Beehaw at the moment. Consequently, it leads to significant fragmentation of content, which has real and serious implications.
Conclusion:
From the points discussed above, the possible lack of moderation alone justifies considering defederation from Threads. However, it remains to be seen how Meta will handle moderation on such a large scale. Additionally, the inability of individuals to block an instance means we have to do what is best for the community.
If you have any added points or remarks on the above, please send them to @mwadmin@mastodon.world.
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We kindly ask everyone to engage in civil discourse and remember that not everyone will share the same opinions, which is perfectly acceptable.
It’s really actually not acceptable to ignore what a bad actor Facebook/Meta has been. Catch up on the news if you need to. Cambridge Analytica scandal, unwitting social experiments, and the insane amount of intrusive permissions required just to use threads etc. They’ve been anti-consumer in an almost dystopian way and failing to call that out is an immoral stance. There’s really no polite way to say, “that’s a hell no, fix your attitude, or I’m out.” That people have characterized folks telling you this is a deal-breaker as “blackmail” is the absurd stance here. We’re asking you to stay true to the anti-corporate “power to the people” spirit that created Lemmy in the first place and call out Meta for being an obviously bad actor in this space, as a bunch of Reddit refugees… You actually arguing against this and acting like “both sides are fine” about it is being completely tone-deaf and is 100% antithetical to the purpose of the fediverse.
“All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.” You’ve already committed to doing nothing during an important time with a “wait and see” attitude. Meta is still a face-eating leopard, a frog-stinging scorpion, or whatever analogy does it for ya. It’s not a tough choice and there IS a right and wrong answer.
I’m mostly interested in seeing if the fundamental ideals behind Lemmy work well against bad actors in practice. At least for a bit, and if they don’t, coming up with ideas that could make it better based on what we learn by letting them in for a minute.
We are judging lemmy.world admins based on their decisions and inaction is also some kind of a decision. Facebook is a threat and they’ve decided to not treat it seriously.
“i want to be a toxic asshole to people with different understandings and values than me about the platform we all share” - you, pretty much,
you can still be civil and accept that people have differing opinions even when you have such strongly held beliefs. there may be a ‘correct’ answer but not everyone will immediately see that, and about already commiting to doing nothing, they literally cannot take any action on the matter yet because threads has no federation or defederation connections yet, and we have plenty of time to disuss it and come to a reasonable decision.
While I typically subscribe strongly to a stance of “Innocent until proven guilty,” in the case of Facebook, that doesn’t seem prudent. I would much prefer to stand back and watch, for a long time, how they behave in the community before opening the door to federation with them. If they conduct and moderate their users well and show no signs of EEE, it may be worth considering connection to Threads in a few years’ time. Until then, I would very much prefer to hold them much further away than arms’ length.
While I typically subscribe strongly to a stance of “Innocent until proven guilty,” in the case of Facebook, that doesn’t seem prudent.
I don’t see a conflict. Facebook has been proved guilty a thousand times over by now.
True. I stand corrected.
Was this considered? https://ploum.net/2023-06-23-how-to-kill-decentralised-networks.html
Google essentially destroyed Jabber this way.
I was there and Jabber at the time also looked promising and Google adding its GTalk was the push everyone thought Jabber needed and everyone was welcoming it.
Meta will join Fediverse only if it will be still a threat to them, once users will switch to it (let’s be honest, majority of users on Fediverse aren’t purists, and if metra will have some unique features they will switch) they will defederate and Fediverse will lose meta users as well as old users. Just exactly as it happened with Jabber. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
I think this might be somewhat the wrong lesson for Freddy.
The harm Google and Microsoft did to open protocols wasn’t federating with them. The harm they did was snatching up devs from those projects and then later killing their support for those protocols. That is, they sucked up the brainpower maintaining these things and left them to rot.
It’s important the realize this because whether or not every mastodon or lemmy instance says “screw meta” and defederates, the real damage happens when meta hires a bunch of Freddy devs to support their support of Freddy tech, puts them under aggressive non-competes, and ultimately abandons the effort.
The solution to this is figuring out how to pay our devs so they can refuse offers from meta. That or ditch capitalism, but that seems more daunting.
Boy, I sure hope Freddy is careful. Sounds like they’re in danger /s
But more seriously, Lemmy is developed by like, 5 people, most of whom are wholely anti-capitalist. I’d be quite surprised if any of the official devs jumped ship.
You would be surprised at how many anti-capitalists flip on a dime when someone backs up a dump truck filled with cash and empties it on their porch.
I know I was shocked when I found out.
The thought process probably goes something like “This is obviously a ploy to destroy what I’ve helped build but it’s not gaining as much ground as I hoped anyway, this capital will give me the ramp I need to build something that will be better, with blackjack and hookers…”
I think it’s more “Woah! That is a shitload of cash! Let’s go swimming in it!”
There is well-documented impact that money has on thought. You can see it everywhere. Remember what happened to that Minecraft guy…?
Ribbit
Thanks for posting your thoughts; they seem completely reasonable to me. However, my personal choice if the decision was in my hands would be to take the same wait-and-see approach, but with the default switched: I would start defederating with Threads until we see how it seems to go with instances who don’t.
If there was a guy standing in my driveway who I didn’t know, I’d probably keep an eye on him a bit, but wouldn’t worry much unless he started doing something threatening. But if the guy was the same one who beat the family next door to death, I’m calling the cops and making sure the doors are locked. Meta gets no benefit of a doubt me; we don’t need their interaction and it’s hard to believe much good can come from it.
I don’t fault you for your opinion though; it’s a grey area and I’m at a different spot than you in it.
The “guy standing in the driveway” just outed a woman to authorities for trying to get an abortion.
We already know he is a bad actor.
“Wait and see” is bullshit.
Facebook/Meta is THE largest social network and one of the oldest active ones.
We’ve seen it all.
There’s no reason to wait.
Defederate.
I’m deleting my .world accounts now and moving to .ml.
I’ll move to a different instance the day Lemmy.World federates with Threads. I came here to avoid corporate influence over my social media, especially from Facebook.
Move today, don’t waste server resources.
It’s so bizarre to see people complaining about “kneejerk” reactions as if it’s the user’s fault and not Meta’s.
Have you people just forgotten everything about Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook?
You’re goddamn right the reactions are kneejerk, that’s the point.
After over a decade of abuse, controversy, and horrendous practices that have defaced the very idea of social media and caused actual, real damage throughout the world, people have rightfully identified Meta as a monster.
And when a monster is coming for you, the kneejerk reaction is turn around and run.
It’s very telling that all the arguments for allowing them in are basically “well, we can survive it”. Like, everyone seems to be on the same page, here: Meta is terrible and wants to monopolize everything. Yet rather than the sensible thing and just get away from them, people are arguing we should fuck around and find out?
@lwadmin@lemmy.world
If Lemmy.world federates with Meta/Threads, I will delete my accounts and ditch Lemmy altogether.
It’s shameful that this is even up for discussion.
What an embarrassment.
Embrace, extend, and extinguish (EEE) - We don’t think they can. If anyone can explain how they technically would, please let us know. Even if Meta forks Lemmy and gets rid of the original software, Lemmy will survive.
Regardless if we know the method in which they will attempt it, we know what they are and what their ultimate goal is. Just because you can’t see the fangs doesn’t mean you invite the menacing stranger in black into your home in the middle of the night.
Also, “Lemmy will survive” is a bit like saying “technically the earth will survive after climate change”. We’re not just interested in continued existence, but in the manner that existence takes. If Meta is allowed to set-up shop in the fediverse, they will come to define it, and new users will see it as the fediverse. By the time Lemmy.world defederates, it will be like cutting off its own arm and no one will want to leave Threads anyway.
Basically, let the fediverse grow without this snake in the garden. Let it form its own identity without Meta so it can serve as the counterpoint to it and refuge from it.
disappointing those who desire interaction with Threads
Maybe those rare few (deranged) people should just go create a Threads account? This is a very unconvincing attempt at appearing “objective”.
Yeah most of us here are specifically trying to avoid corporations.
While I think that we should rightly be very wary of Threads/Meta, I do also think that it is still too early to judge. It’s hard to accurately predict what will happen in the future given the relative youth of Lemmy and the Fediverse. (Admittedly, I’m also relatively new to the Fediverse, so what do I know?) Given Meta’s track record, we should be very aware of the possible red flags and make plans for possible future malicious actions, but for now I’m okay with waiting and watching.
No, sorry.
We know exactly what Zuckerbag is all about.
Not a chance.
I’ll hop right the fuck off Lemmy in a heartbeat.
Don’t hop off of Lemmy, switch to an instance that doesn’t federated with threads. That’s the beauty of decentralization.
Facebook is entirely supported by ad revenue, I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they put ads as posts and had fake engagement on them on threads. I don’t want to see of that seeping out here.
How do I switch any existing username? Is that possible?
Not yet. You need to make a new account in another instance for now.
Account migration is in mastodon already though, so it should be a thing in Lemmy too at some point
Lemmy will survive.> wouldn’t it be better to take care of it, not just “survive” ?